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PM talks first |
So he's using blackmail then?
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TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.
By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it. You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations. Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure. I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so. It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process. Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time. It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty. Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway. Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too. So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it. |
The PM said
"Democracy" What The Feck The E. U. is far from a Democracy |
I've turned off, just baloney from the pair of them.
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Good to see and hear Boris Johnson being at his best 'UN- statesmanlike' behaviour
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so either we do as were told by the americans or else theyll put us to the back of the queue
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If we Vote Out we are busy trading Worldwide |
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That's fine ... debate over! |
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I am not so sure that will be the case. Yes we will get trade deals but will they be the quickest and best deals possible after throwing away the status and all we have as to trade within the EU now if we choose to walk away from the EU after 43 years. With all major Countries advising the UK to remain in the EU, why should they, if we dismiss that advice and vote to leave, then fall over themselves to assist us in a big way. I have no confidence in that at all,the sight of the UK throwing away all it has at present in the EU is in my view, more likely to bring about dismay around the World as to our allies and those Nations friendly towards us. Outside the EU,we will be just one Country seeking deals,the rest of the World is clamouring to get deals with the EU. The glory days of before the EEC of the 50s and 60 s are gone, no way can we even hope to never mind get them back if we leave. I cannot see the rest of the World being bothered what happens to the UK if they see it can act as irresponsibly in throwing away the massive trading deals it has now and many other doors opening in the EU too. Yes, we will get trade deals but at what costings to the UK and what other conditions too that we will have to accept. I think we will be seen as going backwards by the rest of the World except by Russia maybe. I would certainly not and will not vote to risk all we have now for just a hope of past glory days,those days are well and truly gone in the cutthroat business of trading deals in the modern World I'm afraid. No Country has said the UK leaving would open doors to massive trade deals with them out of the EU,none. Why is that I wonder? more than likely because most want trading deals with the EU to increase,dealing with many Nations in one go and not just one. |
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Hey, now just a minute here, I do not belittle anything. How can a deal not yet finalised, not negotiated fully and not agreed which needs to be put eventually to all the EU nations not have to have the consideration of a wait and see,This may yet turn out to be something 'possibly' really beneficial to the UK in the end. If all I have to do to debate is agree with you and others then sorry that is not debating but I still fail to see how proposals, and not finalised deals, can have anything other than a wait and see approach to be fair to all negotiating sides. We will for sure need the USA more if we leave and sorry but I am not one of those anywhere in the UK who is a USA basher,I believe they often do have the UKs best interests in mind. No one gets everything right which is why these talks and negotiations on TTIP were expected to be finalised in 2014 but now have no expectation of that until 2019 or even 2020. Clearly loads of detail still be rejected,included and worked out. Until I see that final presentation and finalised deal that is going to be put to the EU member Nations, that is when I will judge it, not on speculation and proposals stages only. Fine however, debate over but sorry, I still think I am as right in my thinking as you think you are in yours too, but certainly as you wish,debating over with you then.. |
The President is in a London Hall
taking Questions from a fixed crowd Live on SkyNewsHD and BBCNewsHD |
Demolition Red is 10,000% correct in what she maintains and her reasons are factual and irrefutable.
This thread has deviated somewhat into part general EU debate so I will not expound, but I will say that I am tired of the same old unsubstantiated views on here that seem to be allowed to pass as legitimate reasons for staying in the EU, but which are but mere recycled untrue propaganda from Meister Liar Tory Boy Dave and all the corrupt minions whom he has summoned to his cause - ALL who have vested interests in seeing the UK remain in the EU. I CHALLENGE any REMAIN supporter on here to debate civilly and honestly in a 'Fact for Fact' debate on the EU Referendum thread or anywhere. Facts and Statistics - NOT - Spin, Lies and Propaganda. |
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I agree Kirk |
who are we to take as our confidants and allies in this... if not the EU or America? We cannot be a stand alone country.
Who are our friends?!!! |
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We'll sink without the EU. |
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We will Sink with it Dezzy |
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Leaving the Eu would be a reactionary and stupidly shortsighted move. We rely on the EU market, it's dumb to leave when we won't have the support of our allies. |
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They will adjust. |
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Thats just not true Spain exports Veg to us its the big income |
The TTIP is being created by people with a purpose and it’s a purpose which will hugely benefit the rich corporate fat cats who couldn’t give a siht about democracy and the damage these treaties will do to it. I’ve spent weeks reading as much information as I can get my hands on about these treaties (which I naively believed to be just some big trade deal) how its structured, how they don’t have to wait for the full ratification process to be completed before its implementation; what it will achieve and how it will re-mould our country to look more and more like America. I’ve read the good with the bad, the benefits, the hurdles and the undoubtable truths that these treaties are the end game of neo-liberalism. This is what it was all about, this is the cherry on the cake and I’ve never been so scared in my life.
Obamas dogmatic doctrine may convince a few because to some extent, Obama is looked upon as the ‘ruler of the world’ the ‘high priest’ if you like. I myself, right up until very recently, greatly admired his leadership but now I see him for what he is, just like Cameron, he’s another talking head that paves the way for transnational corporations and survival of the fittest at his citizens expense. We can sit back and wait for the 11th hour in Westminster or we can get constructive by signing petitions, making ourselves more informed and raising awareness with others or even joining the protest groups. If I’m not part of the solution then I’m part of the problem; if too many of us are complacent then we must accept when the battle is lost. |
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A really good friend tells you the bad you 'need' to hear as well as any good so I applaud Obama for saying what the out organisations are never going to probably to the UK voters. That there is no long list of Countries waiting to bailout the UK on leaving the EU. It is for the out side to show us with substantiation all the Countries that are heralding the UK out of the EU and who will make sure the UK gets the most lucrative deals with them too. However in my view there are next to none. Of course Countries will trade with the UK once out but not likely on the best deals possible as most of them will be trying to gain greater access to the EU markets and trade,which once the UK leaves the EU, the UK cannot then help deliver that access to them. The president has put in clear words that even the USA, a solid ally of the UK, will not to the expense of gaining deals with the EU and therefore the EU Nations,look to help give the UK lucrative deals even with the USA. There are no other Nations I have heard of who are saying all will be great with us if the UK leaves, that they then will do great trading deals with the UK. None, and the reason is, that they want access to the EU trading machine too,of which the UK will be irrelevant as to, if it votes to leave. Let the out organisations tell the voters, what Nations will welcome the UK out of the EU and give us the massive deals we may need, also at the same time tell us just what deal we will go for with the EU, that we have a realistic hope of getting and 'all' the conditions that will still have to apply to the UK if and when we do get a trade deal. Obama as head of the USA, has blown a hole in the out organisations arguments as to other Countries that we can rely on to trade really lucratively with. As Obama said, the UK could find itself at the back of the queue and I think he has spoken sense there and I am glad he put it so bluntly. It is time the out organisations stopped dismissing all the in side says,whether its right or wrong,and much the in side has said is wrong and started to prove to us, such Nations are there and who they are and what they are saying too as to trading with the UK after an exit vote from the EU. 'In' doesn't have to prove anything, the EU is there we are in it,its successes and failures are there to see for all, the good and bad as to it too. We have noting at all however of substance from the out organisations and it is time they informed voters with real facts and identified the Countries and all other organisations who may be backing them up,if they can find any.. While they are at it, they also need to totally get that £350million claim poster put right that has been termed as being misleading and get the right figures in place. Also if they are advocating all the funds of any savings from the EU going to the NHS,they also need to then prove and say what they will do for the Farmers and other areas who get some of that funding back from the EU too. |
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[QUOTE=joeysteele;8625983]"What has upset the out organisations across the UK the most in my view,is the fact that the USA President has said what they 'will not' tell UK voters".
What has upset the 'OUT' organisations, and the 'OUT' individuals, is that the summoning to his pro-EU cause, of a failed, mediocre US President, by David Cameron - a politician who has revealed himself to be one of THE most thoroughly unscrupulous, deceitful, and corrupt Prime Ministers in British history - is but yet another example of Cameron's arrogant presumption that he and his self-serving pro-EU, anti-Democratic elitist cronies, can FOOL all of the people all of the time. Well, HE CANNOT. The only people in the UK Cameron MAY be able to fool, are those 'undecided' EU Referendum voters who are 'bamboozled' by the task ahead of them because they are not particularly politically 'literate' - which is his 'target market'anyway. He is despicable. But back to Obama; Who in their right mind gives two flying fecks WHAT failed politician 'Barry' Obama thinks about what is best for the UK concerning the EU? This is the US President who is not only judged by the most respected political commentators in the US as being 'mediocre' but also judged to be a spectacular failure and under achiever by a largely disgruntled American Electorate to boot - as the American Gallup poll shows below: https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qim...t_to_webp=true Just LOOK at the American electorate's rating of Obama in his second term - LOWER than Clinton, Reagan AND EVEN Bush. Though for the purposes of this thread topic, it is the fact that a MASSIVE 61% of those polled deemed Obama a FAILURE WHEN IT CAME TO HIS HANDLING OF 'FOREIGN AFFAIRS' - yet here is this jerk-off travelling to the UK to LECTURE TO US WHAT IS BEST FOR US CONCERNING OUR FOREIGN AFFAIRS?????? Looking at the chart, and Obama's dismal 'Approval Rating' for his handling of the US Economy, then not only is Obama NOT qualified to offer us advice on Foreign Affairs, he is also NOT qualified to have any insight into the 'Economic' reasons for the UK to exit the corrupt and fiscally failed EU either. Imigration and its effects - both medium and long term - on INTER-RACIAL relationships within the UK, is one of the key concerns for most of the UK electorate - NOT the ONLY concern, but one of them - and in this area too, Obama is the one of the LEAST QUALIFIED of foreign politicians to have any insight on whether our continued membership of the EU is detrimental on these issues or not, because under his presidency, RACIAL TENSIONS in the US have WORSENED: https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qim...t_to_webp=true LOOK at how a massive 75% of BLACK AMERICANS confidently expected Obama's Presidency in 2009 to herald in a new and better era of 'Race Relations' then look at how that figure plummeted to JUST 4% in 2013 after 5 years of Obama's presidency!! and this survey was carried out WELL BEFORE the the Trayvon Martin trial and well before Ferguson - both of which will have compounded Black America's disenchantment with mediocre Obama. "A really good friend tells you the bad you 'need' to hear as well as any good so I applaud Obama for saying what the out organisations are never going to probably to the UK voters." 'A really GOOD FRIEND'??? LOL. I do not know about you, but MY friends do NOT THREATEN ME in an attempt to BULLY ME into making a decision which suits THEIR agenda, when that decision will affect the rest of my and my childrens lives. Let us get this much STRAIGHT - Barrack OBAMA is a FRIEND of David Cameron's NOT the UK populace, and his reasons for intefering in our affairs on the EU are for the benefit of Cameron NOT the benefit of the UK populace. He is trying to sway the people of the UK to voting to remain within the EU because THAT is to HIS benefit, to David Cameron's benefit and all their elitist cronies benefit - NOT to the benefit of the UK people. THEY ALL DESIRE THE EU GRAVY TRAIN TO KEEP ON ROLLING BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THEM NOT US but the truth is, that NO ONE should take any notice of Barack Obama - he WILL NOT EVEN BE IN ANY POSITION OF POWER come Referendum time, so his threats are IMPOTENT and he has NOT the power to put the UK to the back of any queue - trade or otherwise. |
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I have seen great pages of rambling rhetoric from 'EU-Remain' advocates which says NOTHING and is just regurgitated spin from Tory Boy Cameron and his 'Personal Vested Interest' club. A case of those fooled trying to convince those who are NOT fooled to join them really. |
The hypocrisy of the likes of Boris Johnson is unbelievable, for the out organisations had this president even indicated that the UK would be okay out of the EU as to securing other deals with other Nations including the USA,
They would be yelling from the rooftops, even the President of the USA thinks we could be better out of the EU. They would have no problem with his stance in that scenario, as indeed although I am for in, I would not either. The EU has been good for the UK as to security and working together on many issues that are considered global,things like working together on climate change issues too. Its directives as to social policy which we eventually signed up to have helped the lowest pad and helped strongly as to health and safety and workers rights. Not all perfect but most have been pretty good additions to the UK social structure. Also a fact after all the decades of being in the EEC and then signing up too to the EU as it is now, the UK has remained the successful Nation it has been from the 80s onwards,working together when needed and being able to combat difficulties as to the recession and the unexpected and worst crisis for many a generation when the global financial crisis hit in 2007/8. We are successful in the EU, that is the simple fact that needs to be taken on board, now really it is the out organisations who are calling for change, it is for them to guarantee the UK can hold that success it already has in the EU, if it leaves, not vice versa. The UK should be able to be guaranteed before it makes any change on this scale for its future,that the out side has done all its homework, and knows for certain what can be in place after we leave. Otherwise we take the UK down a road of uncertainty for possibly years, even to just get any new deal with the EU, never mind anywhere else.. Really, are the out expecting anyone to believe that likely years of uncertainty are not going to hit the UKs economy, stability and investment from other Nations Of course it must, unless they have a blueprint they can present to voters with all the names of Nations and their leaders who are saying yes the UK can do great with us out of the EU. So we are a successful Nation in the EU, have been since we joined and remain so,that is a fact. Now the 'out' organisations being the ones who want to change all that, have to tell the voters all the facts they have, and any/the support from around the world for their position,and from any of the major organisations around the World from financial institutions to even the likes of NATO. That is 'if' they have any of note at all. They are the ones that have to remove the only thing that is evident in this campaign, which is that the only thing 'certain' about leaving is there is a likely long period of endless uncertainties as to the UKS future. The EU has been good for the UK in that no matter what has been thrown at Europe, the rest of the world and the UK,in the EU the UK has been, is and remains now a successful Nation. In light of what Obama has said and what other major World leaders have indicated too,it is the 'out' side who have to tell the voters the truth and not distort figures, as on the £350million poster which is misleading as has been said. I repeat again, either they cannot say the UK will be as successful or better out of the EU because they have no other major Nation or institution to back up that argument. Or they 'will not', which for me is more dangerous and likely means they indeed know too, that things will be a lot harder and less successful for the UK out than in and will not say so. That is what is unfolding around the World from Countries leaders and all other institutions,that the UK will have a harder road. Obama has stated clearly how he sees it and where his Nations priorities will lie, he is now backed by Hilary Clinton his likely successor. As a friend to the UK he has laid it on the line which is far more than the 'out' organisations have done so far by only spouting anti EU rhetoric and selective statistics and figures,of which one has been stated as being misleading by a statistics office. The ones calling for change, have to be the ones to prove things 'can and will' be sustained,they should really be able to say with substantiated evidence it will be bettered as to the UK remaining successful out. We are successful in the EU, to change that for uncertainty and no evidence whatsoever of better success,well that needs very careful thought especially when there is no turning back once we vote to leave. Even moreso if we now still voted to leave after the evidence of all the institutions and other Nations leaders advice on this issue as to how they hope to see the UKs place and status in the World. To have dismissed all those Nations and organisations concerns and advice and then vote to leave would hardly lkely inspire cooperation from them afterwards. Those who want the change then, have to be the ones to prove change is for the better otherwise in lack of that proof,the most dangerous thing to do with any Nation and all its generations of its citizens that need to be successful, is make that change which will only open doors to likely long periods of uncertainty across the board. In the EU, we are successful, ending as I started almost,we have been from joining, we are still and are at present and that is far more likely to continue to be the case in my view, in the EU and not out of it. (My post, if even read,will probably be dismissed as some of the old 'in' EU rhetoric that has been said over and over again,that does not bother me, as it has more facts and more evidence as to the position from other Nations leaders,The USA President being only the latest one,also the support of financial institutions and then even on security from NATO too. It contains far more facts and backing up than anything at all thus far presented to the UK voters by the out organisations who demand detailed info and facts from the 'in' side while giving none at all of substantiated detail themselves as to their position for the vital future of the UK). |
The President has now back tracked
saying it would take time - feck me , we know that. Not back of the line. Ref : Sunday Politics PM BBC1 |
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Of Course |
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He has travelled plenty to acquire the knowledge of other Countries and the way they converse. Since he was speaking directly to the British citizenship he used the word they would use 'queue' not 'line', that's more like respect than being told what to do by our PM, if anyone actually really believes our PM could tell a USA President to do anything,let alone tell him how to talk. |
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By the way there are only 28 Nations in the EU not 30. I honestly am at a loss as to why you even bother reading anything I say since all you can do is dismiss it totally with no factual comeback of your own and be rather rude in your analysis too.. When you can do that and name any institutions or other World leaders to back up and support your stance on the EU, I may listen. All you can do is try to insult people, thankfully and hopefully that attitude is seemingly starting to lose the argument for the out side and I hope that continues to be the case. All I said is fact,all happened ,most know it did, we haven't a clue still however as to what your out looks like at all, at present it would be like walking along a clifftop blindfold in my view if we vote to leave the EU. Hopefully the tide has turned. If all you can do is dismiss all anyone else says, and then insult their posts as nonsense or rubbish, then maybe you are in the wrong place, as you won't get people just agreeing with you all the time. I am not bothered whether anyone agrees with me or not but I say what I believe is truth and fact. Frankly however I couldn't care a jot as to what you think of my posts and what I say. When and 'if' you can come back with substantiation of institutions and other World leaders as to your cause,then I will respond again but meantime really just don't bother to read my words and then end up wasting my time as well as yours. |
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We need the EU market, it'll survive without us but if we leave we'll basically be cutting off our nose to spite our face. |
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Most posts from the 'Remain' supporters on here are just repetitions of the same unsubstantiated, tired pro-EU propaganda and sweeping false statements without a grain of truth. They remind me of the scene from The Wizard of Oz' where The Cowardly Lion keeps repeating the line; "I DO believe in spooks. I DO believe in spooks. I do I do I do". |
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By the way that cowardly lion in wizard of oz got what he wanted and triumphed in the end. Are you definitely saying there are institutions around the World who back the UK leaving, financial or otherwise. Pray enlighten us. Are you saying that NATO has 'not' said it would be better for the UK to be in the EU. Are you saying the USA, China and India and any other Nations who have expressed a view are saying the UK should leave the EU. Are you saying the UK is not successful and are you then confidently predicting that the UK 'will' do the same or better out the EU for sure. Instead of rubbishing what others say, enlighten us to who we will do deals with and what deals they have said they will even just look to give us. Will we definitely not have to accept in part or full, free movement of EU citizens as Norway and Switzerland do to get a good deal from the EU. Tell us what will be out of the EU,not what should or could be, but what will be. That was always the challenge the out side was going to have and I admit it is a hard call for them to do. If I could genuinely see a list of Nations who have said they definitely will give the UK really lucrative deals once out, if I could hear any financial institutions say the problems would be minimal once out and if I could know for sure a really good deal with the EU was possible and not to have still the free movement of EU citizens. Then even I would consider voting out if that was presented and was able to be proven. Are you saying my substantiated fact that none have outlined that scenario is totally wrong. Are you also really still standing by the £350 million a week figure that the out says we would save and that whole £350milllion could go to the NHS, Are you really saying I am wrong in that we don't even send the rebate to the EU,which is already gone and used up anyway by the govt. That the EU does not return funding to regions, businesses and Farmers and that if we leave the EU that will stop. Are you you still then saying it is actually £350milllion we save a week, when in reality it is more like £175million. If that even £350million less the rebate would be going to the NHS, are you then saying the funding back from the EU that goes to businesses, farmers and regions will not now be going to those areas because the savings are all pledged to the NHS. Where then will the money for businesses,regions and farmer be got from after that? I think you need to assess your own facts before you tell others they are making unsubstantiated claims with respect. Just why on earth can the out side not just stop rubbishing what anyone they disagree with says and simply answer the repeated questions I have been asking on here and endlessly too off here to the out organisations for weeks now. Where and who exactly are the Nations who are definitely there and who have said they will give the UK really good trading deals if the UK leaves the EU. Where are the institutions supporting the out side that the UK will do as well or better if we leave the EU. Where and when have the EU hierarchy ever stated they would give the UK a good trading terms deal and not expect the free movement of EU citizens to still take place. While I concede and have done all through, that the in side is wrong in this campaign too and that they have over exaggerated figures. I put what is obvious to me and many others as to how I see the EU. Yet you say I am wrong so please then enlighten us with proper backed up answers to the questions I asked above.in the questions I put to you above. Because quite honestly it astounds me you cannot. That worries me as to why the out side will not, if they are the only ones totally right in this and everyone else in the UK who wants to stay in and almost everyone else around the world who is expressing a view on this when asked,is totally wrong. Yes I am likely rambling to you again but then I have read a lot of possible rambling on this thread and not just from the in side either. |
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