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every single area of the EU policy has failed. the facts show all time record unemployment levels, all time record debts, all time record imbalance of wealth between the rich and poor nations and between the elite and the rest. all time record corporate power. the uk has done way better in all key areas because we kept the pund, all these are FACTS you choose to ignore, because you want to enslave the uk to elite corporations, elite wealthiest 1% and to corrupt unelected unaccountable European politicians ...tony benn would be turning in his grave |
Here is a full 6 stage summary of Flexit http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf
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I agree with you as to the euro,however I made no further response to you because I stand by all I said in that post and disagree with your put down of my opinion again. I am voting in this referendum not just for myself but for the UK and its future generations too. I have talked to a lot of people and I listen to them when they talk to me with respect unlike yourself. I find the younger generation firmly for 'in',I see businesses overall for 'in', other World leaders of Nations we will need to deal with if out for 'in'. I listened for what NATO would say, if they would say anything at all, they are for the UK 'in' too. Even if out had 2 financial institutions come out leaving,then that would have given the out side some greater credibility. My own Parents who I take a great deal of notice of in my life and decisions too, they both voted out in 1975 apparently,this time both are voting to stay in. So I get a greater balance as to making my decision, I have talked endlessly at times to friends and family who want out of the EU and I listen but even they cannot name a single ally or friend of the UK who has said we would be better out the EU. Neither can I and it seems even you and others as strong advocates of leaving the EU, cannot either. Just going about insulting all who want in and putting them down while not presenting anything not backed up by the organisations and Nations I mentioned is not good enough in a campaign. If I could be shown support for out by any major organisations around the World and the Nations that out say will deal with us, telling us same and saying what kind of deals they may give the UK. I would listen, in the absence of all that I will not and I have no wish to debate with anyone disrespectful. Yes you are right on the euro, however no way were we going to join it post 2001,thanks to Gordon Brown stopping Blair even considering it. We will not be joining it, we will not be expected to join it. So no problem for me there at all now. You didn't destroy my post at all, you disrespectfully dismissed it and answered none of the points I raised in it as to questions I actually raised yet again, and now for the 10th time before you sarcastically put it. Both sides are and have been playing this wrong,I find I get more annoyed with Boris Johnson once he starts having said that, I listened to Nigel Farage this morning on Murnaghan and found I was agreeing with him as to some points he made. No one is all right and another all wrong. I will talk and listen to anyone who is respectful but if all you can do is be disrespectful to other members and dismiss all anyone says who disagrees with you as nonsense then sorry, debate with you is not only impossible but unwise to even attempt,speaking only personally for myself as to that with the fullest respect. |
I posted a very good link if you care to read it Joey. Its worded much better than I could give it justice and I don't want to post the entire article on here because its far too big but it answers a lot of questions re-Brexit.
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I went to my local Labour party social on Friday and it was interesting listening to other left wing views regarding Brexit. The elders in the group tended to say things like, “I know there’s a lot wrong with the EU but I still think we should remain in”, whilst others, mainly the younger crowd, stated that, regardless of Corbyn, they wouldn’t be supporting the in campaign because the European Union goes against their left wing principles. It felt strange sitting with a bunch of left-wingers who were so divided. One guy said to me, “I feel almost embarrassed to be sitting with the out campaigners, after all, most people presume Brexit supporters are right wing immigrantphobes … but” he continued- “I’m a socialist at heart and I’ve always seen the EU as a racket for the rich and not compatible with my left wing vision of democracy.
it appears there is a real divide in Labour party thinking regarding the EU and Brexit. |
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It does at least outline what could be 'hoped for' and what 'might' be the way and case for out. Still unfortunately nothing that is backed up by major forces in the World. I like that it warns against a botched up exit strategy as to leaving the EU and even adds that would be really bad for the UK. Appreciate the posting of it, it hasn't altered my view,I still think that in is the best thing to do but at least it is something with an idea of out though sadly still with no real facts or backup. Which to be very fair to it, was not its intention, it was just presenting a vision, an idea of what out could and might be but not for sure will be. Interesting read however,I do admit that. |
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In fact I have been out a lot with members younger than me, all campaigning for in. Interesting though to learn that as to your experience too. |
Yes I would expect that the vast majority of Labour Leavers are older members who have retained their Euroscepticism from the 70s when the left of the party didn't want to join the EEC in the first place and the early 80s when withdrawing from it was official party policy
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lot of young kids brainwashed by corbyns willy wonka promises of golden tickets for everyone, except a man like that can never ever pay for all his tickets
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'Assault on societies'
Not everyone is enamoured by the potential agreement, with concerns the deal will drive down wages, weaken environmental protection and labour rights, and put the demands of big business before those of citizens. John Hilary, executive director of campaign group War on Want, says: "TTIP is correctly understood not as a negotiation between two competing trading partners, but as an assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations seeking to remove regulatory barriers to their activities on both sides of the Atlantic." Protests against TTIP in GermanyImage copyright Getty Images Image caption There is opposition to TTIP across Europe Much of the opposition to TTIP in the UK and other EU countries including Germany, is focused on its provisions for "investor-state dispute settlement". This procedure would allow companies to sue foreign governments over claims of unfair treatment and to be entitled to compensation. Critics say the measures undermine the power of national governments to act in the interests of their citizens. For example, they warn that tobacco giants could use the procedure to challenge restrictive regulations, citing a case in Australia, where Philip Morris Asia used a 1993 trade agreement with Hong Kong as the basis for a legal move to stop a change to packaging. Poorer standards In the UK, attention has focused on the potential impact on the NHS, with critics saying TTIP would allow private firms running NHS services to sue the government if it chose to return the services to the public sector. Opponents have called for the NHS to be exempted from TTIP, arguing that other sectors have already secured exemptions, such as the French film industry. NHS logoImage copyright Getty Images Image caption There are TTIP concerns around the NHS The UK government says the details of how the dispute settlement would work are still under negotiation and claims there is no threat to the NHS. Critics also worry about the impact on food standards, arguing that the EU has much stricter regulations on GM crops, pesticide use and food additives than the US. They say the TTIP deal could open the EU market to cheaper products with poorer standards. They also warn that food giants could use investor-state dispute settlements to bully governments into dropping legislation to improve food standards. Week of talks Irrespective of how the UK population decides to vote on 23 June regarding EU membership, the TTIP ship sails on. The next round of talks, the 13th, is due to open on Monday in New York and run until Friday. |
I watched Andrew Neill on the Sunday Politics talking about TTIP, the general view of it was that its running into all sorts of problems and may well be likely not make it to even being asked to be ratified by the EU Nations.
Obviously Obama wants this achieved but now even in Germany,despite Merkel being in favour,protests as to it went on there too,it would seem in its present form and planning, it would be very unlikely that every EU member Country would vote it, and they will need to. Even the Labour party here in the UK has strong reservations about it Despite Obama's own hopes on it, things move slowly in the EU and this may not even come to fruition, as it stands at least. |
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Like you said about yourself in another post, I too have read thousands of pages from different articles on the EU and Richard North is one of the most intelligent, rational, and persuasive of 'Brexiteers' whom I have encountered. I do feel though - as you will increasingly find now - that when it comes to Brexit on here, you can provide ALL the factual evidence, data and statistics, and logical propositions which the 'Out' camp demands, and it will either be totally ignored or paid 'lip-service' and still be dismissed, and will NOT change any 'remain' supporters mind. I find it telling, that most 'Remain' supporters did not know about this plan nor what the 'Rotterdam Effect' is, yet some of those 'Remain' supporters are among the most fanatical. |
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Continue posting those sweeping falsehoods - you are convincing no one by them. |
I haven't posted here in a long time but I saw the topic and had to comment about this. I get angry when the Pope comes over here (to the USA) and tells us building walls is a bad idea so I completely understand Brits being mad at Obama. I am embarrassed to have a president who lectures other countries on what they should do. Whether the UK stays in the EU or not has no effect on the people Obama is supposed to represent so as far as I am concerned it is none of his business.
If I were a Brit I would want to get out of the EU so I hope what Obama is telling UK citizens will backfire and people will vote to get out of the EU because of it. |
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FORGET CORBYN, TRUTH - THIS SNAKE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN THE UK WHEN IT COMES TO BRAINWASHING OUR CHILDREN INTO BECOMING EU SUPPORTERS http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...58_468x382.jpg Not only does ugly bastard Evan Davis preside over the most pro-EU biased programs within the pro-EU biased 'impartial' BBC, but he also annually chairs a conference for UK school children (sixth formers) called 'Your Future in Europe' where he gives the opening talk and answers questions about the EU from the children present. |
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All I will say is the out organisations have tried to argue there are Countries we can easily deal with as well as having some trade agreement with the EU if the UK leaves
One Country mentioned a few times was the USA, now for me I have no problem at all with the leader of the USA saying if that is really the case or not. Which is what Obama has done. Had he been saying something like, of course the USA is here and will give a good trading deal to the UK, his comments would have been very much welcomed I think by the out organisation. The out organisation first brought the USA into the debate by citing it as one of the Nations we would easily get a trading deal with Which has been proven to be untrue by the USA's current President and backed up by the person likely to succeed him too. I see nothing wrong at all in the president putting that info and fact out there in the slightest. I only wish we would hear from the out organisation any major Nations that are prepared to go on the record as stating clearly they will quickly give really 'good' trading deals to the UK if it votes to leave the EU. Rather than just hoping many will and with no back up even on that hope. |
I don't think Obama should interfere in our politics personally. If there is information to be shared on trading etc, then it should come from the relevant department in the USA - not the president.
All that said, the reason nothing can be specified by the out campaigners on trading is that it takes years to set these trade deals up ... it could easily be more than a decade. It will take at least 2 years for us to negotiate an exit from the EU let alone actually leave. Its not an on/off switch, it could be 2 decades before the UK is trading in its own right outside of europe This is why, personally, I think its a bit of a non debate. The world can change its nature and economic climate in 6 months, so who the hell can say with any certainty in or out what will benefit us in 2 decades time. Its just not possible. For me its about principles. Do we want to be part of a larger inclusive group, or do we want to be on our own. Everything else really doesn't matter. |
Obama should withdraw his trunk immediately. He's perfectly willing to encourage us to do something he would never expect the American people to do. And bringing up the WW2 war dead was despicable. Maybe next time we want something from the US - a trade agreement after we leave the EU perhaps - we can remind him of the bodies of countless thousands of British troops that litter the Far East where they died helping the USA beat Japan.
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I'm not interested in discussing this further with you, you are incapable of debate and I don't really care for anything you have to say on the matter. |
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He also I feel really sure and would put a bet on it that he will not win the presidency no matter who he runs against,'if' he even gets the republican party's presidential nomination in the first place. I will listen to Hilary Clinton any day of the week over Trump. Whatever the deal is that the USA managed to do in 10 months is not the deal the UK may be seeking with the USA. For as long as the USA sees any opening to a fuller deal with the EU, as the President said, concerning the UK if we leave the EU,there's no quick fixes and a deal with the USA could take a long time. That is his Country and he has stated his word on public record that there will be no quick deal at all if we leave the EU too. Whatever you think, he has set that out very clearly,it would appear that from what we are hearing too that Hilary Clinton endorsed that, she did not just say, the UK would be better in the EU but there will be a fairly rapid deal with them if they left. It is clear then she and Obama are at one on this and the drive to get a major deal done with the EU at the cost of other Nations. That may be unsavoury to take,it may even be a less than good act from the USA towards the UK, however it does mean the 'out' claim of a quick deal with the USA, is as things stand, has been blown right out of the water and is in fact extremely unlikely and will be for some time. Yes, Obama will be gone in around 8 months time, I am really sure Trump or no republican will be the next President and that a Democrat President more likely than not Hilary Clinton will be there for the next 4 years at least after Obama goes. So no quick deal at all with the USA,so where next of any real standing as to trading deals that are good and needed ones? |
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Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.
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or the threat of ttip and corporate America taking over Europe including our own nhs |
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So I will listen to her and and anyone else on the World stage who says anything as to their view of or plans of dealings with the UK. |
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Anyways, I earnestly hope that Britain will once again belong to the British. No one in the US still takes Obama seriously and he'll be gone in less than a year. So don't give him more attention than he deserves which is none. If the British stand up to Obama, the American people will respect you for it. |
The referendum is not binding. However, the government would be on a suicide mission if it chose to ignore the will of the people.
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The govt have handed the whole responsibility of the decision to stay or leave to the voters only. It is no longer a decision then for govt, if we vote to stay we stay and if the vote is to leave we leave. They have put no conditions on it even as to turnout,or majority or how many UK Nations vote for or against staying. This is a fully binding referendum on the govt,no matter how close or how wide the result either way. |
you cannot just vote you have to apply to vote, that stinks too, millions wont be aware of this
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It's just like the Scottish referendum... do you honestly think the votes matter? You are staying. It's already decided. Get over it. |
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yes but usa didnt wait 3000 years to merge 30+ countries with 1000s of years of profoundly different languages, laws, currencies, resources, histories, cultures etc etc etc
the usa did it from the grass roots up with a tiny 6000 word constitution which worked....try our 70,000 one packed with more laws than any politician has ever managed to read let alone understand or implement |
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I only wish I could have the confidence you have the the UK will vote to stay Alex, I really think it will be a narrow vote to leave myself. From all I am hearing and picking up. |
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Heres another report today about how horrific ttip would be for the UK just a few titbits , this is the deal that the EU and USA are close to completing the usa will takeover just when the eu is at its weakest on its knees over run with debts, bankruptcies, overpopulation and terrorism http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6999646.html This is what youre supporting? Opponents say the deal could give corporations the power to sue governments when they pass regulation that could hit firms' profits through an international court called the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS). READ MORE TTIP: Obama says trade deal should be signed by the 'end of the year' United Nations figures show US companies have made billions of dollars by suing other governments nearly 130 times in the past 15 years under similar free-trade agreements. Details of the cases are often secret, but notorious precedents include tobacco giant Philip Morris suing Australia and Uruguay for putting health warnings on cigarette packets |
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Hi Alex. |
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