I'm amused that you think I don't understand you.

I'm amused you're amused.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and it is recognised by security services around the world that around 7% of them are radicalised and in some way supporting terrorism. You work it out.

Of course, I won't be asking you for actual evidence that I'm wrong.

No you're not.

Well TS services have recognised that 95% of all humans are arseholes, which would presumably include Muslims. So if you do the maths, and assuming your 7% figure to be accurate, still only 7.4% of those Muslims are radicalised. That's pretty good going, to be honest.

I think Israel is a fair comparison. If you are regularly put into that position then why are you so happy to do it to Muslims? You downplayed the opposition that Muslims put forth against extremism as 'getting together for the weekend' yet you shirked out of offering an alternative course of action. All these people can do is stand up and denounce the actions of extremists and they've sent that message out loud and clear every time an attack happens. It's not an islamic issue, it's an extremist issue.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy in these statements?

No, my being a Jew is just a convenient excuse for your to point score in an argument where there is A LOT of grey area. As far as I know Jews are not attacking the West right now, they're not hacking up servicemen rolling trucks over little kids. So let's have one discussion at a time because if I wasn't a Jew you would never have brought it up.

I didn't shirk out of anything. Please don't use aggressive language in what is supposed to be a debate.

Muslims in the Middle East who have suffered at the hands of IS and other organisations are vociferous in their opposition to terrorism. In the West, Muslims don't have to be, because there are always people worrying that they might take offence at being asked.

Israel is not a terrorist organisation threatening the stability of this country.

Using this question to me is like asking a gay person to explain why Black Lives Matter are blocking the roads... because both groups have been oppressed.

This is interesting, usually it's just two on one.

No it isn't, it's saying that you can't be expected to speak for Israel / Jews "just because you are Jewish", whilst insisting in the same breath that moderate Muslims in the west should have to stand up against radical Islam... "just because they are Muslims".

It doesn't matter what the context is. If it's wrong to insist that someone speak on behalf of a group "just because they belong to that group" in one scenario, then it is wrong in any scenario.

If you actually bothered to read my post you'd have seen that I brought it up as an example which I followed up by saying that it wouldn't be fair to hold you accountable for the actions of Israel because of your faith so it's hypocritical to expect the same from muslims for extremist organisations that don't even represent Islam as a whole, even more so to downplay attempts at condemning the actions of IS.

Your last statement is completely and utterly ridiculous. To think that western muslims are placed on a pedestal beyond criticism is so ridiculous. Western muslims get plenty of stick and they are often made to feel like they have to shoulder the burden of a extreme minority's actions that do not represent them.

It's a discussion dear, not a cage match.

The thing is if you are not doing the action then you shouldnt feel defensive at all. "Western muslims" arent terorists but some of them (if not majority) support bashing gay people etc so those people who support that (bashing) are pieces of **** as well in my eyes, they are not diffrent from isis at all.

Vast majority of the muslims around the world are supporting making gay people's life hell so i am going to speak up about it, there is no need to stick up for the people that wont care about you at all.

But also i dont believe attacking muslims on street or bullying them just because other muslims are doing ****. I judge people by their own action not as a group. But there is an obvious truth out here that needs to be spoken.

Also israel did tons of **** to palestine for no reason and i wont tolerate that at all as well. I would expect better from a nation that suffered WW2 worse than any other country.

Don't call me dear, Dezzy. We're friends... please keep it civil.

Western Muslims are put on a pedestal. Especially in this country. Everyone's afraid of upsetting them so their anti-gay, anti-all other religions, misogynistic stance is tolerated.

Not this again :shrug:. More than one person disagrees with you and all of a sudden it's "ganging up"? That's an easy cop out, I suppose. I personally will happily argue against the entire forum without complaint if they happen to disagree with me... as far as I'm aware it's not a "one in, one out" tag team system where you have to wait on the sidelines until the numbers even out :sleep:

Surely not something I've said you disagree with TS.

Why don't you try to tick me off like a child? Or post one of your "comedy conversations".

Or better still, stick me on ignore and we won't have to annoy each other anymore.

:hmph: If I don't debate seriously enough, everyone gets all huffy about me not respecting the sanctity of SD&N... if I start making actual posts again then the response is this? :shrug: pick a lane?

You don't annoy me and neither do your posts so I have no real reason to put you on ignore... I get plenty out of your rants, they soothe what remains of my little soul :hee:

I completely understand the point Livia is making. It is not just that "More than one person disagrees" with her, more that there are 'more than one person disagreeing with her' who actually COME ONTO the thread to do so, because - this Forum having degenerated from its previous excellence with ridicule and personal prejudices being more openly vented, a LOT of members who AGREE with Livia, either dare NOT come on the forum to air that agreement, or do not WANT to come onto the forum because, though not intimidated, they still cannot be bothered with the inevitable fallout.

My own take is a combination of both - in addition to the unshakeable realisation that these threads are totally FUTILE, because this is just one more of many forerunners, and despite the most comprehensive of 'quality' debating - by both sides - NOTHING is ever resolved, and NO ONE's mind is ever changed, and INVARIABLY, instead, hostility, anger, ill-will and resentment are the end results.

In MY Own Opinion, of course.

Israel is NOT a terrorist organisation threatening ANY country or ANY people.

WHY is it always treated as a GIVEN ABSOLUTE on any post - consciously or subconsciously - that Israel is THE cause of the woes in that part of the Middle East, and that Israel is the OPPRESSOR when it comes to the Palestinian issue?

Because - quite simply - Israel is NEITHER, and for anyone to assume or presume that it is, is oversimplifying a very, very, complex issue.

Because israel is THE cause of mess in palestine

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/Smileys...ic/nodding.gif

And a kewpie doll for the lady.


See. You do "get it" after all, Kirk.

lol at the poll

Submission

I am the 7.23% hands up woo :laugh:

Funny that. Our national news coverage would have you only believe we exist... I just wondered if the the proximity that the Europeans have to the Middle Eastern region, with the complications of having open borders, may help to generate more of a daily news cycle.

I used to be able to. They're off my cable provider, but am reading they went bust

BBC America has some coverage.

Agreed.

It sounds like a lot of people here have very strong personal opinions. I haven't had an experience or a situation where I have any reason to create or have a strong viewpoint. I've only met a handful of Muslims (if that) and they were barely practicing. Most other details I've learned from school from history.

I know more and more people here (in the US) are anti-Muslim for many reasons (including the increasing airs of nationalism, of which I detest intensely). However, being from a mixed community myself I can't feel such suspicion and heavy disdain towards Islam because the practitioners happen to be practicing in a hypocritical manner. Some of that could be my own ignorance though as I don't have a deep enough understanding of the religion to know what it does and doesn't encourage explicitly.

I get what some are saying here about personal experiences and having been to those countries, but are we sure it's the religion that provokes the violence and not just that it gets enmeshed with the local population. I would think the religion is an easy gateway to victimizing groups and going after non-religious agendas as some have illustrated here eloquently about the religion needing reform. Though even if we went back even a few hundred years, we would see similar oppression (and violence) by Christians towards minority groups... it was society that reformed from black and white ways of thinking that ultimately changed that statistic.

I can read news about the violence online, but without having good context (especially experience based), it's hard for me to draw such critical conclusions. I don't know enough about Muslims or their way of worship to be a good judge of their beliefs and practices. Terrorist groups and oppressive political parties wouldn't necessarily be the best example due to the stronger, motivations involved. Though I certainly respect why some people would have strong views against Islam from personal experiences in those countries...

Having said that, there are major major humanitarian issue with regards to the oppression and violence occurring in the Middle Eastern region that is spilling over into other countries and may eventually find a stronger foothold in the future (as generations pass). However, when we collectively (as countries, not people's opinions) make it an anti-Muslim issue, we're only looking at the short-term and are more or less giving the opposition more ammunition to create animosity, dissent and ultimately grow numbers against the West.

There are some groups that are intensely anti-Muslim in the US too that I would not want to take the lead here. That too will cause more dissension and needless bloodshed as well which is likely more harmful to peace within the US than terrorism.

Is it enough yet?...

'Radical hate preacher Anjem Choudary has been found guilty of inviting support for Isis.

Muslims and Muslim organisations around the country have come out in support of the verdict, with many saying they have been waiting years for Choudary to be locked away.

“Although these men are no longer on the streets, we must recognise there are other extremists in Britain aggressively promoting an Islamist extreme worldview often on campus, communities and social media.

“We all have a responsibility in challenging this perverse ideology whether in mosques, universities or online. There is no place for such extremism in our society.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7196041.html

words on their own are never enough

What would you have them do? All any muslim civilians can do is denounce the actions of extremists. Do you expect them to arm themselves and fly to the Middle East to fight IS?

they can be active in the community stamping it out. It's in their interests to do so, and there has been scant sign of any real opposition. Words mean nothing, unless backed up by action. Its their religion, they need to own it.

It's very easy to say that but what would you realistically do to stamp it out? 'words mean nothing' after all.

So if a group of white supremacist hardcore Christians was to rise up on a street in England, abusing everyone around them and attacking people, threatening lives... In your opinion, little Betty Smith from Number 3 should tackle them, because she goes to church every Sunday. After all its her religion... She needs to own it?

Don't be silly, they're white so their actions would automatically be separated from their religion and they wouldn't be called terrorists either, they'd be classed as misunderstood individuals that were let down by society.

At its core, yeah. I'm no fan of Islam but there's a fine line between religion and extremism.

you asked me what i would have them do and i told you ... The problem, ultimately cannot be resolved by those outside the religion, it must be resolved from within, and that means taking ownership of their own religion, defining boundaries clearly.

Nah. Religions are slippery buggers. Start defining boundaries and those who have other agendas will simply declare themselves reformists and create a new sect with separate rules. Has happened countless times throughout history...

I chose the cop out option because, well, I agree with the statement "Most muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are muslim" and when the biggest global crisis in this day and age is claimed by people who say they belong to Islam - something has to be said about that.