Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 6326824)

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 6327080)

On the contrary my dad said some horrible things about Pakistanis and Arabs. But then he was quite prejudiced against them (though he spftened on that score in later life). My point really was that even he knew not to use the N word.

As I said before, I don't think he should be defined by that moment. Totally unfair to define him by words spoken unthinkingly when his actions as a football manager were the polar opposite of those words.

All I am saying is that it is possible to hold racist and non racist views at the same time. And whilst I have many times said things I regret, I also consider that things said without thought reflect the language and concepts we are comfortable with.

I mentioned my dad because people keep bringing up his generation. I just don't think he is somehow representative of his generation. I think it says more about what language is (until very recently and probably still in a lot of areas)accepted in the footballing world than it does about his generation.


[eta] I have slightly shifted my opinion of him though, through this thread. I think more weight should be given to his actions during a time when acting in a non-racist way was something that required someone to take a very definite stand. I still don't think that automatically means he isn't or has never been racist. Doesn't mean he deserved to be pilloried in the way that he was mind you.

Originally Posted by williamwaggadagger (Post 6327143)

ron went and made tv documentaries on this he travelled the world from Europe to Australia and America to meet different cultures and communities....ron has of course travelled the world umpteen times already
ive heard people use discriminatory words against the disabled against different cultures and ethnicities and religions and I do not believe 1 word undoes 74 years of great work. you must look at the body of work and the life as a whole and all the positive contributions made
anyway he toured the world , met endless people , witnessed various forms of racism, discrimination, he also met cultural and religious leaders
at one point after rapologising for the umpteenth time, he met the controversial hypocrite darius howe. ron said he was sorry and explained some of the good he had done in his life and how he wanted to try and understand what hed done wrong. darius proceeded to morally lecture him for ages. ron at the end said so is there no way I can ever earn forgiveness or redemption no matter what I do. No Mr Atkinson said darius howe, I am not a Christian

unbelievable

big ron has never stoked up anything, hes a football man, fantastic entertainment as a pundit, harmless and fun loving. in the end 74 years of actions is infinitely more important than 1 word

judge not too harshly or you will be judged the same way

Originally Posted by williamwaggadagger (Post 6327153)

This moral relativity is a joke

Our forefathers were forced by the aristocracy to sail across the globe fighting the Asians, the Africans and beyond. To build a bigger empire for the rich. Divide and conquer across the world was the mission statement for over 100 years. So wonder why their inter racial experiences were not too cordial? millions of young men butchered in battle, do you really think their main priority was which adjectives they used. As with most things, this evil was driven by the elite.

Originally Posted by Lex (Post 6327008)

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Lex (Post 6327008)

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Lex (Post 6327008)

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake! :thumbs:


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks. :thumbs:

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 6323105)

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 6323122)

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 6327319)

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 6323122)

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Originally Posted by RobInnes (Post 6325553)

One racist comment doesn't make you a complete bigot in my opinion....But I don't really know the full story tbh.

Originally Posted by LANDROVER (Post 6328465)

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

Originally Posted by boomoo (Post 6328425)

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

Originally Posted by parmnion (Post 6329391)

I was discussing this with my brother last night, funny thing was, or not so funny thing really, all my brother could add was the fact that desailly was lazy. Now that's racist.

Originally Posted by Jesus. (Post 6329398)

The problem with that phrase he used, was that those adjectives have been used to make comments about black people, since white people owned them.

He just needed to throw in "thick", and then he had a full house on racist bingo. I'm pretty sure if you ever asked him now, he'd never use words like that again, but the way they slipped out show he was inherently racist.