[Ammi]

..so at some point I’m sure this will be discussed on the forum and people will obviously have very differing opinions, I’m a little undecided myself as to when he went into the house and the preconceived opinions I had in that I have listened/read what other people have to say and thought about their views..what he said was extremely racist and couldn’t have been mistaken/perceived in any other way..the fact that he didn’t realise it was being recorded makes it worse in some ways because that might be how he genuinely is all the time..or maybe he just said something ‘out of character’ and it’s ruined his career, which I don’t dispute was exceptional , he’s certainly very good at what he did and everyone is flawed but for me some flaws can be overlooked and some define that person ...I’ve also read that he ‘made one mistake and has been sorry/apologised ever since’ but I recall seeing him in Wife Swap with Tessa Sanderson a little while afterwards and he didn’t appear sorry at all and refused to discuss it, he seemed quite arrogant about the whole thing..it was only at the end when his wife ‘spoke to him’ that he appeared to even listen to what anyone was trying to say..maybe she helped him understand why what he said was so wrong because he genuinely didn't realise..?..or maybe she helped him to understand that he should ‘appear’ to be sorry etc..I don’t really know..I would quite like it if it was discussed in the house at some point to hear what he himself has to say now, he would never be a favourite for me anyway just because he doesn’t stand for much I admire in a person, his career just isn’t enough to make his character..but do you think he is a racist and can you like someone even if they are because of other positive qualities about them..?..I’m genuinely interested in people’s opinions....

[DigitalSid]

Do I think he hates or dislikes other races, no, do I think he's prejudiced towards and stereotypes them, yes.

[Miranda123]

Originally Posted by DigitalSid

Do I think he hates or dislike other races, no, do I think he's prejudiced towards and stereotypes them, yes.

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Miranda123

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

True dat. Though my mum was never racist and she grew up in postwar Salford. In fact she had a black boyfriend for a short time when she was 16.

Dad had some unpleasant views of muslims. But his family were from India and he'd grown up as a Raj child. They left just before partition and he saw some pretty nasty stuff that, I think, gave him a slightly warped view of them. In his defence though, he reeducated himself about that in later life.

My grandparents on my dad's side were racist. Grandfather would occasionally address asian doctors as 'boy' and had to be quietly reminded that he was not in the Raj any more. Gran was born and raised in Blumfontaine, South Africa, before moving to Calcutta. They both had some very strange ideas about race.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Miranda123

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

..I understand what you're saying Miranda, there was a lot of racist comedians etc 'back in the day'..the 'day' that was meant to be such a greater day than today as well and a lot of it was ignorance, people not being educated etc..but isn't that what racism is though...ignorance..?....does age make it more acceptable because he's also lived through those years and should have been 'less ignorant' when he made that remark, he didn't make it as a young person who may not have understood it..?...

[Tozzie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I understand what you're saying Miranda, there was a lot of racist comedians etc 'back in the day'..the 'day' that was meant to be such a greater day than today as well and a lot of it was ignorance, people not being educated etc..but isn't that what racism is though...ignorance..?....

I remember a comedian called Charlie Williams, he was a black man with a thick yorkshire accent, he used to make jokes at his own expense, I remember he used to threaten that if you didn't shut up he'd move next door to you! and in his day that was seen as very funny. Nowadays his jokes wouldn't be tolerated and rightly so as he was making out that it was a bad thing to be black. I wonder how other black people used to see him back then? I also remember really racial TV shows called Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part. I'm quite ashamed to say I used to find those shows really funny and its only years down the line that I realise how ignorant I was.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Tozzie

I remember a comedian called Charlie Williams, he was a black man with a thick yorkshire accent, he used to make jokes at his own expense, I remember he used to threaten that if you didn't shut up he'd move next door to you! and in his day that was seen as very funny. Nowadays his jokes wouldn't be tolerated and rightly so as he was making out that it was a bad thing to be black. I wonder how other black people used to see him back then? I also remember really racial TV shows called Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part. I'm quite ashamed to say I used to find those shows really funny and its only years down the line that I realise how ignorant I was.

My mum showed me a comedy they had back in the day called 'till death do us part' man that was hilarious. It was good too because it made the racist guy out be a right plonker I think that sort of programme would be a good way to expose racism.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Tozzie

I remember a comedian called Charlie Williams, he was a black man with a thick yorkshire accent, he used to make jokes at his own expense, I remember he used to threaten that if you didn't shut up he'd move next door to you! and in his day that was seen as very funny. Nowadays his jokes wouldn't be tolerated and rightly so as he was making out that it was a bad thing to be black. I wonder how other black people used to see him back then? I also remember really racial TV shows called Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part. I'm quite ashamed to say I used to find those shows really funny and its only years down the line that I realise how ignorant I was.

Funny you should mention 'Love Thy Neighbour' Tozzie!....as I only found out not long ago, that my all-time favourite BB contestant Derek Laud was cast to star in a channel 4 re-make of the programme about 5 years ago!...I'm not sure what happened to it?...if it was axed, or just never shown,...but I certainly knew nothing about it until I happened across it the other week!...but I found a short clip of it on youtube.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7oyBbmyI68


the production quality [as well as Derek's acting] is pretty naff, as you can tell...so I wonder if this bit was filmed and supposed to convince chan 4 bosses to back it?...[and of course probably failed!]

btw Tozzie, I have heard Rudolph Walker speak with pride about Love Thy Neighbour several times!...he boasts that it was the first time on British television that a Black man was equal to a white man!...and who are we to argue with that?

....oh!..and note that Derek and the lady playing his wife were referring to themselves as "Black People!"...I mention this because there are people on this thread [can't remember who now?] that says that it is disrespectful for us to refer to 'black people' as black!...which I found rather confusing! ...but thankfully...you making me look at this clip of Derek again... has cleared it up for me!

Cheers.

BTW...I come from a couple of miles away from where Charlie Williams grew up, and we are about the same age...but can't say that I knew him before he became a famous footballer/ then comedian....But I did meet him several times in passing later on in life...he was a smashing cheerful bloke, just like he was on the telly!...and though I couldn't say that I knew him too well...I think that you can safely assume that Charlie was proud to be black, and couldn't give a crap what anyone else thought about him, and his act!..and would have hoped that you had fond memories of him

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Miranda123

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

This is a fantastic post Miranda! ...I myself am 84 years of age in a few weeks, and can totally confirm your assessment of "Old Racism"....it wasn't right of course, and perhaps we are being a little liberal with ourselves in describing 'racism' in the distant past as 'not so bad' and 'in much better humour'....but I have to insist that old racism had scant little comparison with todays bile-ridden nastiness towards people of a different creed and colour!

To me....Big Ron is a pillock for saying what he said...but definitely not a racist by today's definition!

And that's really all I have to say on the subject! ...Thanks.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Lex

This is a fantastic post Miranda! ...I myself am 84 years of age in a few weeks, and can totally confirm your assessment of "Old Racism"....it wasn't right of course, and perhaps we are being a little liberal with ourselves in describing 'racism' in the distant past as 'not so bad' and 'in much better humour'....but I have to insist that old racism had scant little comparison with todays bile-ridden nastiness towards people of a different creed and colour!

To me....Big Ron is a pillock for saying what he said...but definitely not a racist by today's definition!

And that's really all I have to say on the subject! ...Thanks.

Oh I dunno about that. Boarding houses with 'No Dogs, no blacks, no Irish' signs, and some truly vile things said and shouted at people.

I saw a series of news voc pops in the wake of Windrush and my word, but that was some nasty stuff there. Ordinary, pleasant looking houswives with their faces contorted into expressions of hatred and revulsion as they discussed black and white mixed relationships. Talking about black people like they were animals.

[CaudleHalbard]

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

He called Marcel Desailly a "big, lazy ni**er".

[DigitalSid]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

Called a player, while he thought he was off air but was on, a "****ing lazy n*****", and later made a remark about Chinese women being the ugliest women in the world (clearly has never seen Lucy Liu ).

[Livia]

He's not intelligent enough to even know he's a racist. The man's an idiot. Last night on his VT the first thing he said was "One thing I can't stand is stupidness". Obviously there's no such word and he meant stupidity... but this is how he's got on in life. He's stupid, he pretends he's intelligent, and other stupid people believe him.

[DanaC]

Yes, I think he is a racist.

Does that mean i automatically won't like him? Well, not necessarily. If I disliked everybody with racist views I'd spend a lot of time disliking people I meet in life.

I think it depends on a lot of other factors really. I've had friends who were racist (usually just the day to day passive racism that falls apart at any actual scrutiny) and likewise some members of my extended family are/were what I would consider to be racist.

It's a definite mark against someone though. And I find it very hard to like someone who genuinely believes that there is a natural racial hierarchy.

[Shaun]

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Shaun

he's everything that's crap about English men.Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

..this exactly, I wouldn't admire anything about him even without the racist comment...

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by Shaun

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

That is absolutely not true. Perhaps if you were interested in football you would be able to find out that Ron Atkinson was the first manager responsible for the introduction of black ( hate having to use that word when they are gorgeous mahogany) players into top teams. A statue to commemorate three of those players is to be built in Birmingham.
What he said has been deemed wrong and he has paid the price. If anyone called Ron a white bastard no one would turn a hair.
The term he used is in common speech among black people.

[alex_front2]

Ron is a racist. Probably why no one of colour is in show this year. I hate it when people who probably have never experienced racism in their lives *cough* say 'oooh all this PC-gone mad, black footballers ought to be greatful that the nice big white dude gave them their big breaks'.

*side eye*

[CaudleHalbard]

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........

I don't know how he could claim he wasn't racist when he used the word ****** like that in a negative way about a black man

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't know how he could claim he wasn't racist when he used the word ****** like that in a negative way about a black man

..why didn't he just say 'that lazy whatever..'..why use the n word..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Oh for heaven's sake - how long should someone be discriminated against for an ill-advised comment many years ago. Those without sin and all that.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Oh for heavens sake, how long should someone be persecuted for a poor choice of words many years ago. Those without sin and all that.