Ron and racism..your opinions..?...
 

..so at some point I’m sure this will be discussed on the forum and people will obviously have very differing opinions, I’m a little undecided myself as to when he went into the house and the preconceived opinions I had in that I have listened/read what other people have to say and thought about their views..what he said was extremely racist and couldn’t have been mistaken/perceived in any other way..the fact that he didn’t realise it was being recorded makes it worse in some ways because that might be how he genuinely is all the time..or maybe he just said something ‘out of character’ and it’s ruined his career, which I don’t dispute was exceptional , he’s certainly very good at what he did and everyone is flawed but for me some flaws can be overlooked and some define that person ...I’ve also read that he ‘made one mistake and has been sorry/apologised ever since’ but I recall seeing him in Wife Swap with Tessa Sanderson a little while afterwards and he didn’t appear sorry at all and refused to discuss it, he seemed quite arrogant about the whole thing..it was only at the end when his wife ‘spoke to him’ that he appeared to even listen to what anyone was trying to say..maybe she helped him understand why what he said was so wrong because he genuinely didn't realise..?..or maybe she helped him to understand that he should ‘appear’ to be sorry etc..I don’t really know..I would quite like it if it was discussed in the house at some point to hear what he himself has to say now, he would never be a favourite for me anyway just because he doesn’t stand for much I admire in a person, his career just isn’t enough to make his character..but do you think he is a racist and can you like someone even if they are because of other positive qualities about them..?..I’m genuinely interested in people’s opinions....

Do I think he hates or dislikes other races, no, do I think he's prejudiced towards and stereotypes them, yes.

To be honest, I've forgotten what he did.

Was it a racist remark while he was broadcasting? Or had it been a series of things he said?

He called Marcel Desailly a "big, lazy ni**er".

He's not intelligent enough to even know he's a racist. The man's an idiot. Last night on his VT the first thing he said was "One thing I can't stand is stupidness". Obviously there's no such word and he meant stupidity... but this is how he's got on in life. He's stupid, he pretends he's intelligent, and other stupid people believe him.

I think its an age thing, both my parents saw all races in a stereotypical way, it was the way things were in their era's

In fact I grew up in the 70's and things were the same then

The weird thing was that both my parents were Irish and had suffered the same kind of racism when they came here, but still saw black people as 'different'

What you have to remember is that when people like Ron were young, large scale immigration was still pretty new, and all those different cultures felt even more alien before the internet, when most people knew very little about the world

One of the insults people would hurl at black people when I was a child, would be to call them 'spear chuckers', understandable perhaps, if the only black people you see en masse is in a Zulu film or Tarzan

When my mum came here in 1939, and walked out of Paddington Station, she saw her first ever black man, wearing a white suit and tap dancing for money, and she stood there for ages watching him cause she had heard about black people but wasnt sure whether it was true or not!!

I know that he worked with a lot of young black players who still say nice things about him, so maybe he's not so bad after all

Having said all that, I dont think he's gonna be in the running for winner

Yes, I think he is a racist.

Does that mean i automatically won't like him? Well, not necessarily. If I disliked everybody with racist views I'd spend a lot of time disliking people I meet in life.

I think it depends on a lot of other factors really. I've had friends who were racist (usually just the day to day passive racism that falls apart at any actual scrutiny) and likewise some members of my extended family are/were what I would consider to be racist.

It's a definite mark against someone though. And I find it very hard to like someone who genuinely believes that there is a natural racial hierarchy.

Called a player, while he thought he was off air but was on, a "****ing lazy n*****", and later made a remark about Chinese women being the ugliest women in the world (clearly has never seen Lucy Liu :hmph:).

True dat. Though my mum was never racist and she grew up in postwar Salford. In fact she had a black boyfriend for a short time when she was 16.

Dad had some unpleasant views of muslims. But his family were from India and he'd grown up as a Raj child. They left just before partition and he saw some pretty nasty stuff that, I think, gave him a slightly warped view of them. In his defence though, he reeducated himself about that in later life.

My grandparents on my dad's side were racist. Grandfather would occasionally address asian doctors as 'boy' and had to be quietly reminded that he was not in the Raj any more. Gran was born and raised in Blumfontaine, South Africa, before moving to Calcutta. They both had some very strange ideas about race.

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

Ron is a racist. Probably why no one of colour is in show this year. I hate it when people who probably have never experienced racism in their lives *cough* say 'oooh all this PC-gone mad, black footballers ought to be greatful that the nice big white dude gave them their big breaks'.

*side eye*

He certainly doesn't come across as having too many brain cells to rub together.

I'm remembering the incident now. He vehemently denied he was racist and cited the large number of black players he had recruited. I imagine he would be very upset if this issue was raised in the house.

But a person's language can be a clue to their psyche..........

..I understand what you're saying Miranda, there was a lot of racist comedians etc 'back in the day'..the 'day' that was meant to be such a greater day than today as well and a lot of it was ignorance, people not being educated etc..but isn't that what racism is though...ignorance..?....does age make it more acceptable because he's also lived through those years and should have been 'less ignorant' when he made that remark, he didn't make it as a young person who may not have understood it..?...

Ron Atkinson is NOT racist. He made a racist comment and he's paid the full price for that but remember he had three black players in his West BRom side in the 70's. He was criticised for this in a time when it would have been easy for him to only play white players he played players he thought were the best for their position. Ron
Atkison made a racist comment but Ron Atkinson is not racist.

I don't know how he could claim he wasn't racist when he used the word ****** like that in a negative way about a black man

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Which means he was probably less racist than the rest of the footballing world at that time. But since the baseline for racism back then was people who actually thought black people were subhuman, that doesn't mean he was not at all racist.

This is a fantastic post Miranda! :thumbs:...I myself am 84 years of age in a few weeks, and can totally confirm your assessment of "Old Racism"....it wasn't right of course, and perhaps we are being a little liberal with ourselves in describing 'racism' in the distant past as 'not so bad' and 'in much better humour'....but I have to insist that old racism had scant little comparison with todays bile-ridden nastiness towards people of a different creed and colour!

To me....Big Ron is a pillock for saying what he said...but definitely not a racist by today's definition! :nono:

And that's really all I have to say on the subject! ...Thanks.

..why didn't he just say 'that lazy whatever..'..why use the n word..

As usual, a very interesting point of view, G.

With anything other than football though, I maintain that he's an idiot.

..this exactly, I wouldn't admire anything about him even without the racist comment...

Racism is not about making silly comments, racism in its purist form is about the prevention of different races from achieving their potential. Ron Atkinson had the chance to deny black people opportunities back in the 70's. He didn't. He was the only manager to promote black players and he made Brendon Batson captain. That does not fit into my definition of a racist.

..so does that not just make him good at being a football manager which to him was his passion, not that he wasn't racist..?..

He's an idiot for sure but not a racist idiot.

Read my other post.

You have to remember,He grew up in the 40's and 50's,Using that word was perfectly acceptable in Britain back then when describing black people.There was even a colour called 'n****r brown',You would ask for items in shops in that colour such as cotton and furniture etc.The word is bad today,But Big Ron grew up with it as part of his vocabulary.He made a comment which today is seen as racist when he thought he was off air.Big Ron is NOT racist though.

So Ron is now the poster boy for whats bad about English men? That's laughable.

Football is a religion across many parts of the world, so that can be dismissed. Afraid of anything that isn't English? Well he went and lived and worked abroad. or White? He had black players in his team in an era when this wasn't normal.

Ron can be labeled many things, but it's way too simplistic to throw that around.

Hes a lovely man ,nothing he has said in the past changes my views on him

Also bear in mind football is the working class game, Ron Atkinson will have been brought up and experienced an environment where you would think nothing of throwing around comments like the n word, or ginger in the name of banter. it's not right by any stretch of the imagination and now for the most part we have moved on but a little context is required here.

Maybe (just maybe) we should judge him on how he is as a housemate and not for an incident 9 years ago, over which he lost his job?

He certainly doesn't think he's racist. It will be interesting however to see if he shows any other signs of bigotry. If he does, that could be quite telling.

If he does then I will withdraw my support of him within a second I don't subscribe to blind loyalty, however football managers are canny guys and I'm sure he's learned his lesson from the last incident.

He didn't make these comments on 50's TV. He made the in the 00's. That's the context that people need to understand, not his upbringing. I'm sure many of our parents were brought up in times where racist language was in everyday use, but my parents would never use that.

His upbringing made him who he was. My Grandad went to the grave hating Germans even though the war was over years ago people of that generation are stuck in their ways. He made a gaff and he paid for it. He will have got with the times now that's for sure.

Oh I dunno about that. Boarding houses with 'No Dogs, no blacks, no Irish' signs, and some truly vile things said and shouted at people.

I saw a series of news voc pops in the wake of Windrush and my word, but that was some nasty stuff there. Ordinary, pleasant looking houswives with their faces contorted into expressions of hatred and revulsion as they discussed black and white mixed relationships. Talking about black people like they were animals.

The truth is most of the older generations, people that lived in times where black stuck with blacks, and interacial mixing was throwned upon are not just going to magically stop having the views they grew up with. What I am trying to say is I am not surprised when a member of the older generation is racist. It's more believable then when people claim they have no prejudice. Of course I'm not saying it's acceptable, i'm just saying you can't be too surprised when a man like Ron has racist views and uses the words. He's going to be what he's going to be. Staying clear of people like him is best.

The comment he made was absolutely disgusting TBH and it was right for him to be fired and for people to make their accusation but IMO he's had plenty of chances to demonstrate true pure racism over the years and he hasnt. In fact he did the opposite. He promoted the black players at the expense of the white players.

..I read it, I still don't understand why that doesn't just mean he's good at his job and knowing the better player though...it doesn't indicate his lack of racism, I'm not saying I definitely think he is because I'm not sure about that but I don't think that indicates anything at all...

Actions speak louder than words.


He did make a racist remark, but he also pushed for black players in his squad.


Stupid and insensitive remark, but I don't think he is an out and out racist.

..yeah, I think I understand that, which is why I'm undecided about this one now and listening to other people and perhaps people who know more about him than I do..but my context would be to think about my opinions of him, which wouldn't make me go the other way and like or support him either because the remark wasn't said 'generations' ago, it was only 10 years and I don't know anyone in my own friends/family or anyone I know either his age or older who would have ever used that terminology in my lifetime and not know it wasn't wrong and completely derogatory...

For me I will judge him as to how he is in the house end of. Everyone makes mistakes in life. Hopefully he has learned from his.