Do trans athletes have an advantage in female events? India W., Sharon Davies debates
 

Why not get a trans-athlete?

Or at least someone other than the twat that is India Willoughby speaking on behalf of transpeople in every god damn TV segment.

It’s a shame all these women believe people with or who had a penis are so much better than them

India and Sharon :clap1:

Transgender Games are the way to go...

The answer is "well, duh"

Biological males are (on average) stronger and faster than females, so of course transwomen have an advantage over women.

tbh, in the debates I've watched her in she hasn't been that bad (and is usually the voice of reason rofl)

instead of looking at whether trans people fit into these systems, why not look at the systems themselves? or do people just wanna find as many ways as possible to dehumanise trans ppl

Explain?

Yes, they do.

I don't think so to be honest, as the hormones make them physically weak like females.

Yes of course they do ,it's a no brainer really

Sharron puts a good argument across for benefits aside from strength. Bone structure, pelvis size, red blood cells etc.

In what way are they being dehumanised?

What an odd conclusion to make.

There is no scientific evidence that proves that those don't also change with the introduction of hormones, and lots of evidence that suggests that transwomen are simply more determined and train harder.

:joker:

The fact that people are looking for a way that trans people can participate in sport on a level playing field is dehumanising?

resorting to trolling now are we?

There are no long term studies that prove or disprove anything

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru...d.php?t=354790

yes its a no brainer

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8C...7ccL0lcEA=s750

Obviously

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/9ea50...ef980047db.PDF

According to the above the effects of hormone therapy are very individual and there are no guarantees that such therapy puts transwomen on an equal playing field to those born as women. Who monitors they even take them? The outcome of such a “win’ will always be doubtful and deserving of scrutiny.

Would it be fair to put a female to male trans in the boxing ring with a male opponent, I think not.
Same applies across all sports for me.

Genuine question on that one though;

Would it be fair to put a female to male transexual in the boxing ring with a female opponent?

Do we just accept that there needs to be a "trans category" in sports? Or do we simply say that it's not appropriate for trans people to engage in professional sport at all? Isn't that a massive discrimination?

These are honest questions though; it's a hugely complex issue and I really don't know the answer. Despite my trolling above :hee: I've always been clear that I don't think it's particularly fair to have Male to Female transpeople in female branches of sport, because yes, there are clear physical advantages.

Well I would think a trans specific event would be the obvious solution. Just as they have Paralympics etc.

The only problem being the actual pool of trans athletes may be far too small.

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Most factual and relevant post on this thread. Very concerning that, for some, discrimination against women is less important and that women make ideal scapegoats.

Are there any female to male athletes weeping that they can't compete with men? Probably not... Because what would be the point? They'd never even get picked.

I see this as just another way of men oppressing women. Trans athletes should be able to compete... maybe with each other? But there should be X chromosomes in every female competitive athlete.

Write this without seeing BOTS and Vienna's posts. Agree with both.

Would you not agree though that it's a problem that seems impossible to solve without some sort of discrimination occurring? Again I'm not advocating for it, just saying that this is clearly a hugely complex issue that people need to be exploring in depth, rather than jumping off one side of the pier or the other.

"Just let 'em compete!"

or

"No that's stupid. Tough luck for them! I'll hear no more about it!"

...neither are the realistic or sensible conclusions, here.

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

Me agreeing with Dezzy....!

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

That is, at best, a partial solution.

I don't see why this couldn't be an option, it's the fairest thing for everyone

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

I don't know what the solution is to team sports but we have to start somewhere

What is it about women-only events you don't understand, TS?

If women allow this to happen we might as well go back to the 1950s and all you boys can direct our lives again... this time forever.

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

I've said repeatedly that it shouldn't happen but here I'll do it again if it helps;

It shouldn't happen.


What I meant was, "not allowing MtF transexuals in female sports" is a solution to the problem of unfairness in women's sports, but it's only a partial overall solution because it doesn't address the other part of the problem. I understand that this is the part you couldn't give a stuff about, and that's your prerogative, but you can't insist that other people shouldn't?

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.