Oliver_W: why do you consider being trans. a mental disorder?
 

Yup, I’m talking to you, Ollie. Get yourself in here pronto. Let’s have a bank-holiday Monday debate.

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents :sad:

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

as witness the regionality of it in the USA

I think if you strip it right back, at its most simple level actual transgenderism is a form of body dysmorphia.

The gender stuff that doesn't include a desire to physically transition is something different and I would say largely social. Not a "mental illness" in any more meaningful a way than, for example, any religion and frankly there'd be far fewer problems if it was simply considered a belief system in the same way as a religion.

There is of course always the risk that the social aspects can develop into full dysmorphia especially if the individual already has underlying mental health issues like depression, anxiety, trauma or general identity issues.

Interestingly I work with two lovely ladies , both charming and intelligent… both are convinced they are too far and are constantly dieting despite being painfully , painfully thin .

I don’t know where to look when they refuse a piece of cake from someone and say “ no , no I have to be so careful…I need to lose a bit ..”


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Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Anyone wanting to cut bits of themselves need there head checked. Imagine someone wanting to cut both their arms off! Would you just accept their wishes, or would you think, "you are nuts mate, you need your head checked"

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No

Meanwhile in the real world, lots of young gay girls are going down the route of identifying as male, due to a combination of current social zeitgeist and complicated issues around patriarchal values and internalised misogyny.

Most of them grow out of it after a couple of years.

The bigger concern though is the lesbians being branded transphobic or bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women.

No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

All I can say is that the “T” in LGBT has been very normalised since (and obviously including) 2018 especially so you have to mind how you talk about these things with other people (not just in the office). A lot of black people drop subtly homophobic remarks in the workplace and think it’s okay because “black people are naturally more homophobic than whites” and use religion to justify it. I actually don’t mind the bit about defending your religious beliefs when questioned but you can’t just freely talk like you’re in Ogbomosho, Port Harcourt, Accra, Memphis or Montego Bay when you’re working in an environment where by-and-large LGBT stuff has never been more accepted or normalised (and probably rightly so to an extent). There’s so much I could say about the complex issue of many black people expecting to get a free pass for being more inherently homophobic as someone who’s been affiliated with and exposed to all sides of the cultural coin of life over the years but what I will say is that a lot of black LGBT people carry with them a lot of internalised homophobia and whatnot because they’re just used to being in an environment where they’re not accepted whatsoever by at least 80% of other people most ethnically similar to them. If you talk out of line on the job and offend people on the job you’re likely to be sacked and it’s not a case of “oh, it’s because I’m black, innit?” No. It’s a case of you not being able to keep your mouth shut and respecting what’s contextually appropriate. You can talk how you want about sexual minorities at home or in the church but not in open spaces.

Not really.

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No

No gender and sexuality are separate things. For example a lot of trans-male young girls are actually straight (biologically) or gay (if you think of them as boys).

I.e. They are biologically female, they identify as boys, but they're also attracted to boys.

It can get complicated I suppose.

Especially when you have two biologically male transwomen in a relationship with each other, identifying as lesbians. Which happens more often than you'd think.

People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

There’s an awful lot of cultural nuance that has to be appreciated but I see where you’re coming from. I don’t mind people being disapproving of homosexuality (but not the people themselves) because of religious beliefs (which are often culturally syncretised, whether that’s readily admitted or not) but undisguised homophobia that knows no restraint (whether it rests on the hypocritical premise of religion when it’s apparently okay for them to commit every sin under the sun Monday - Saturday themselves) just needs checking and shutting down. Nigeria (to use an example) is hands-down one of the coolest, most culturally and spiritually blessed countries in the world but also one of the most notoriously homophobic. Visiting a mama-Nkechi buka to eat jollof rice, suya, nkwobi and drink Nigerian Fanta is a vibe but when LGBT people go to places like that to dine it does feel a bit jarring. The people cooking and serving your food probably don’t like you at all. If it’s obvious you’re gay they’re only tolerating your presence for the money.

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic :joker:.

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia :joker:. It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

But the point is, Ollie, homophobia is a learned and handed-down part of black cultures worldwide, which is why black people are far more likely than white people and even British/eastern/south-eastern Asians (the undiluted Indian sub-continent can be pretty homophobic) to a certain extent to be very grossed-out by and against L.G.B.T. stuff (especially when it’s men or transgender people involved). A lot of white people just accept that it kind of comes with the cultural territory (and it’s certainly not all or even the vastest majority of black people but it’s a disproportionate amount of we’re being honest) but I know what you mean about it not being on. If you’re cheating on your wife every other day but still have the cheek and the audacity to use the Bible to excuse being a flagrant homophobe you’re a class-A tool. There’s nothing in the Bible that puts homosexuality on a special taboo-pedestal when it comes to what’s considered sin. If you’re a homophobe (or an internalised homophobe), just say that outright and own it if it’s bigotry you want to do.

Typical Nigerians do need to learn to keep their mouths shout when it comes to L.G.B.T. prejudice. Some of these people now are not even up to 2 weeks in the U.K. and roll up at Tesco expecting to be able to pay in Naira notes but somehow have enough cultural savviness to know when to pull the race-card, while still expecting it to be okay to be as overtly homophobic as they come. Nigerians are some of my favourite people in the world but the hypocrisy can be a lot. Sometimes black people are their own worst enemy. Doing the work in the community to at least suppress certain beliefs in mixed company and recognise that active discrimination of all kinds isn’t on is more important and beneficial long-term than pointing out every supposed micro-aggression in the world that white people are supposedly guilty of just by breathing.

Edit: didn’t mean that thumbs-down smiley. It just came out of nowhere.

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

True. The Bible Belt in the U.S. is brutal, too. But I think one difference you’ll notice is that white L.G.B. (let’s just leave the T out for now) people from the Deep South still have a certain leeway/freedom to be open about their sexuality because being white is a certain protective factor when it comes to being more broadly accepted. Black L.G.B. people open up about it at their own risk, wherever they are. The funny thing is black people are estimated to have slightly more L.G.B. (again, let’s just allow the T-factor for now) people than whites do but they’re more likely to keep quiet about it because there’s nowhere for them to run, unlike white Bible Belt-descendants out of South Carolina or Georgia if they’re not straight. That’s why so many black men especially are on the down-low.

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

Exactly, Niamh. Any ‘fluidity’ thereof (which is just human nature and gender stereotypes are somewhat contradictory when you look at them through a historical lens - a prime example being pink being seen as a feminine colour since the 1930s/’40s, whereas before that it was considered quite masculine and females were the ones who were blue) is still ultimately based on the two biological sexes (which is the only certainty in all of it). You’re either biologically one or the other (unless you’re one of those genuinely rare intersexual people who were obviously born that way) but beyond that it’s a case of stereotypes being peddled as having anything other than maybe the slightest biological backing to them and that’s where it just all goes wrong. In 2023 we should be beyond all that.

But then again there’s Russia, which happens not to be a particularly religious country (as far as I know) but of their own accord incredibly homophobic.

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

From what I know of Russia they have very clear ideas about "masculinity" in general, it seems to be a different thing sort of unique to Russia (and a lot of Eastern Europe too I suppose, anywhere Russian-influenced historically)

Football obsession is for boys, not men. Adults should have more important things to worry and think about than Ronaldo’s next goal. I’ve never been a big football fan but I always liked boxing/wrestling, skateboarding, computer games (I never bothered with xBox/PlayStation, nor have I ever owned one, but I’d play those types of games - naturally besides FIFA, which I obviously sucked at - at mates’/cousins’ houses and I still do from time to time), … ya. (When I wasn’t reading.) Boxing and wrestling is arguably more masculine (and certainly more interesting) than watching over-paid 29-year-olds trying to kick one silly ball into a goal-post. I understand having a moderate lifelong interest in football (especially considering Liverpool’s actually one of my home-towns) but what I don’t get is the crazy obsession that so many men used to have in it before the pandemic (I think it’s calmed down a bit). Eventually even footballers have to grow up and find a proper career where they’ll be paid much more averagely.

It wasn't much different with white until fairly recently. "It's always been that way" isn't an excuse.

There’s this Nigerian media clown called Bobrisky (he’s been popular since at least 2017, maybe before) who’s a camp “cross-dresser” but the funny thing is he openly opposes gay rights. I don’t know who he thinks he’s kidding but at least he’s not as bad as Obialor James Brown (a mini wannabe version with H.I.V. who’s known for giving himself hysterical, badly-acted seizures over the littlest world happening, including the Queen - who he won’t have ever even met - passing away). Everything about that James Brown idiot (besides one interview where he actually came across as quite measured and calm) repulses me.