[Liberty4eva]

In the last few days I've posted many threads but I think this one is by far the most serious. Although I'm very opinionated on this subject, I'm here mostly to gage opinions and listen rather than change what people think.

This thread is motivated by an event that I witnessed a few years ago. One of my favorite politicians, Representative Ron Paul, once came to my university while he was campaigning to be president in 2008. I can't remember exactly how this came up but while he was answering the audience's questions he essentially told a college student, to her face, that she didn't have a right to a college education (who said politicians don't have balls?). And, moreover, she didn't have a right to a job or a car or a house or anything like that. By that he meant those were priveleges that she had to work for if she wanted them and it wasn't the responsibility of society to provide them or even to try to provide them. However, he did say she had a right to her life and a right to liberty. But that was it.

Basically, I'm curious what people in the UK think are rights and what they think are priveleges and what they think their ideal society ought to be. And by "right" I mean you are entitled to be given this by society via the government (courtesy of the unwilling taxpayer). For instance, in childhood (both the US and UK) we go to public schools and do not pay directly for these services. Hence, in the US and UK public education for children is considered a right. But many Americans and British may not see eye-to-eye on other things such as universal health care. Many in the US do not believe we are entitled to health care. In the old Soviet Union it was considered a right for every person to have a job and so everyone worked for the government whereas in the US and UK having a job is considered more of a privilege than a right (hence many people are unemployed).

The tone of this question is not only philosophical and moral but also practical. Providing everyone with a car may mean, for instance, that taxes will have to go up or the quality of the car will have to go down. And so please do not just answer this poll emotionally. Nobody wants anyone to go hungry but if you think everyone has a right to food, then that means you are in favor of the government doing something like providing rations for every citizen for every day that they live. And some people may not like that especially if the food is low quality which is what it probably would be or the government becomes more bloated as it hires bureaucrats and people on the ground to distribute the food. And if you feel safety from terrorists is a right, then that may mean you are in favor of the government monitoring everyone's phone calls and emails. So I pose this question in the context of the real world where there is no such thing as a free lunch. If it wasn't for the fact that taxes would be funding all of these things, I personally would check down the entire list (as I think everyone else would). But considering there is no such thing as a free lunch, there are very few I would check.

So if you believe that people are entitled to some of these things check all that apply (note: you can vote for several options). I've also included some stupid things like owning a nuclear weapon to separate the jokesters from the people who take this seriously and maybe to provide a little levity.

This is a broad question. I've arbitrarily listed only a few things but there may be other things not listed that you feel we have a right to. If there is something else you feel people have a right to feel free to mention it.

[Angus]

Interesting thread, but where is the poll for the corresponding "responsibilities" we should expect from a person in return for their "rights"? As you say, there is no such thing as a free lunch - someone, somewhere has to pick up the tab.

[arista]

No Rights


You must make your Life and
Work to the bone.


Feel The Force.

[Benjamin]

Anything material like car/house etc should be achieved through working or supporting yourself. It's not a right.

[MTVN]

Good question. I think definitely civil liberties, and these apply to all and should not be restricted like they sometimes are in this country. Something like healthcare is an interesting one, do you really have an inherent "right" to a service being paid for by someone else? I'm not sure.

Essentially I agree with what Ron Paul told you, I think everyone has a right to live their life how they choose, and a right to have freedom from inteference from others and from the government, as far as realistically possible.

[Shasown]

You dont have the right to anything, except life.

You earn certain rights by partaking in social responsibilities, paying taxes or defending your country etc. Certain freedoms and privileges are granted to you by the society you live in on the understanding that you will repay that society if and when you are able.

[BB_Eye]

Home just doesn't feel like home without a hydrogen bomb in your living room.

[Beastie]

I just clicked health care. Because that's all we have and have a right to in this country. Which should be top priority.. our health, our life!

Dental care... After 18 you have to pay I think. It's not free. I think it should be really. Well.. I suppose if you have fillings put in then it's your own fault for not looking after your teeth properly.. so maybe you should pay the price? Still unsure on this one though.

I wish we had the "right" to every single thing in that poll. But unfortunately we don't.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

Anything material like car/house etc should be achieved through working or supporting yourself. It's not a right.

Yeah I agree on this. I agree that everyone has a right to have a job. But it's so hard to get one in this country! Only just 20, 30 years ago.. if you lost your job or you was looking for another.. you could easily get a job. Nowadays you are lucky enough to have a job stacking shelves or working in Mcdonalds!

[Beastie]

Oh crap. Didn't spot the public school for children. Sorry. Only that option and the health option is a right in this country. Which is brilliant. However people need enough food and water to live. How do they get this? By having a job!!

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by angus58

Interesting thread, but where is the poll for the corresponding "responsibilities" we should expect from a person in return for their "rights"?

Detailing the "responsibilities" for all of these would be tricky and so I conveniently leave them out. Usually, the responsibility will include paying their share of taxes.

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

Anything material like car/house etc should be achieved through working or supporting yourself. It's not a right.

So when it comes to goods and services, all goods are not a right but some services are a right?

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Detailing the "responsibilities" for all of these would be tricky and so I conveniently leave them out. Usually, the responsibility will include paying their share of taxes.

My point exactly, so basically no-one has a right to anything. Services, which include health (hospitals, doctors, dentists, nurses), welfare (income support, subsidised housing, child benefit, tax credits, job seekers allowance, state pensions etc etc), defence both at home and abroad, border controls, police, education (including schools, colleges and universities), transport links (roads, trains, tubes, roads), housing, in fact the whole infrastructural shebang of any society, is all paid for through taxes, national insurance, private investment, etc. Even the "clean" air we breathe must be legislated for in order to ensure individuals and companies do not pollute it. Legislation is carried out by Governments, whose elected officers we have to pay.

Therefore the only people who can claim any entitlement (as opposed to a right) to a service are those who have actively contributed, and then only up to the limits defined by society, and subject to the necessary proofs that they are so entitled.

Those people that do not contribute for whatever reason may well enjoy the same services others have paid for, but they have no intrinsic right to them.

[letmein]

In Britain, no one has any rights. The end.

[Grimnir]

In a capitalist, survival of the fittest and selfish society, no one has a right to anything because the only thing people care about is themselves

In a civilized society everyone has the right to clean air, fresh water, education, shelter, a job and health care all for free. If 99% of adults are working and none of the tax is wasted on bullsh** schemes then there is plenty of public money available

Britain at moment is the first one

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

Anything material like car/house etc should be achieved through working or supporting yourself. It's not a right.

I agree with this

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

In a capitalist, survival of the fittest and selfish society, no one has a right to anything because the only thing people care about is themselves

In a civilized society everyone has the right to clean air, fresh water, education, shelter, a job and health care all for free. If 99% of adults are working and none of the tax is wasted on bullsh** schemes then there is plenty of public money available

Britain at moment is the first one

Nonsense, it is no such thing. Those that do not work or contribute still get free health care, free dental care, free education, free housing (by virtue of housing benefit), money to buy food and other necessaries, fresh water and as clean air as it is possible for it to be in our car driving society. There is no such thing as absolute poverty - only relative poverty (ie not being able to afford certain material goods).

In a civilized society the weak and helpless should always be cared for and in Britain they are. However, I object strongly to supporting those that cynically seek to exploit the welfare state and society's limited resources because they believe they have a right to leech off others.

[Judas]

I believe in the natural rights theory, rather than utilitarian princibles. However, this doesn't mean I agree with Locke's idea of 'right to property' etc. I think the rights we have our dependent on how we act; the boundary between maximising your rights and infringing others rights is often blurred. However generally; freedom of speach and freedom to life. We don't have the given freedom to vote/property etc - although I obviously support the welfare state.