[Angus]

MPs defy European Court of Human Rights who have ruled that all prisoners should have the right to vote.

I'm delighted that commonsense has prevailed and MPs across all parties have voted by a substantial majority to ban prisoners from having the right to vote. I hope this is the first step towards rejecting the tyranny of unelected judges in Strasbourg interfering in the UK constitution.

The gloves are off, let battle commence, and I, for one, hope the outcome is a total rejection and repeal of the iniquitous and deeply unjust Human Rights Act.

[Shaun]

grrrr yeah cos prisoners aren't people they're all evil paedos :@:@:@

[Judas]

Originally Posted by Shaun

grrrr yeah cos prisoners aren't people they're all evil paedos :@:@:@

Even though I consider myself left wing on most issues I do feel that its fair that prisoners loose the right to vote. Whether they commited relatively minor crime, or were part of the 'pedo' camp that Tabloid Britain seems obsessed with.

I agree that individual rights are not 'a given' to all; to earn them you must abide by certain codes in that society to be given those rights you protest for. Prisoners know they are at risk of loosing these rights for commiting a crime, which in many cases take rights from other individuals.

[Judas]

Originally Posted by Judas

Even though I consider myself left wing on most issues I do feel that its fair that prisoners loose the right to vote. Whether they commited relatively minor crime, or were part of the 'pedo' camp that Tabloid Britain seems obsessed with.

I agree that individual rights are not 'a given' to all; to earn them you must abide by certain codes in that society to be given those rights you protest for. Prisoners know they are at risk of loosing these rights for commiting a crime, which in many cases take rights from other individuals.

Of course, this is not to say I have never commited (relatively minor) 'crimes'. If I were to say start partaking in larger 'crimes' such as dealing, I feel my right to protest against my personal libertys and freedoms being taken away is invalid. In partaking in crimes the indvidual must be aware of the risks, and undoubtly this can include a challenge to my personal freedoms. Heck, it may not be fair. But that is the world we live in - partaking in actions considered 'bad' by wider society need some kind of punishment.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by angus58

I thought this debate might be above the usual suspects' heads
Predictable reaction, which is becoming increasingly boring and pitiful in its attempt for attention

If you're going to write off everything I say with "the usual suspects" paranoia and hyperbole (that worked very well for WOMBAI by the way ) then you're not going to get anywhere.

My point was that viewing prisoners as a subspecies is ridiculous. Say some of them are in there for credit card fraud, or drug posession - does that mean they shouldn't get a say in how the government's formed? Of course it shouldn't.

In fact I can't think of a single crime that should sacrifice one's right to democracy. Even all the horrible ones which you seem to revel in with some kind of morbid anger.

Originally Posted by angus58

It's sheer hypocrisy for a criminal to bleat about his own "human rights"" when he or she has blatantly infringed and run rough shod over someone else's. Let's hope our Government holds its' resolve and refuses to be browbeaten by increasingly ludicrously out of touch judges in Strasbourg.

Well whilst we're at it why don't we just take away their right to live this is such a backward view it's unreal.

[Beastie]

I am glad. All prisoners should remain NOT to have the right to vote. Their "rights" were all taken away when they went to prison.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by thebeast

I am glad. All prisoners should remain NOT to have the right to vote. Their "rights" were all taken away when they went to prison.

It's sheer hypocrisy for a criminal to bleat about his own "human rights"" when he or she has blatantly infringed and run rough shod over someone else's. Let's hope our Government holds its' resolve and refuses to be browbeaten by increasingly ludicrously out of touch judges in Strasbourg.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by angus58

It's sheer hypocrisy for a criminal to bleat about his own "human rights"" when he or she has blatantly infringed and run rough shod over someone else's. Let's hope our Government holds its' resolve and refuses to be browbeaten by increasingly ludicrously out of touch judges in Strasbourg.

Whose human rights have non violent drug offenders trampled on?

Cheers.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Stu

Whose human rights have non violent drug offenders trampled on?

Cheers.

Mine and everyone else's since,by keeping the drug barons and dealers in business, they are responsible for violence, fraud, embezzlement, prostitution etc via third party in order to keep them supplied with their favourite poison. Furthermore, drug addicts under the influence can hardly possess the mental capacity to cast a reasoned and considered vote, so I don't want to have to suffer the consequences of their stupidity. What's more, they will only be put in prison if they commit a crime, whether violent or not, or did you not register that bit?

Cheers.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by angus58

Mine and everyone else's since,by keeping the drug barons and dealers in business, they are responsible for violence, fraud, embezzlement, prostitution etc via third party in order to keep them supplied with their favourite poison. Furthermore, drug addicts under the influence can hardly possess the mental capacity to cast a reasoned and considered vote, so I don't want to have to suffer the consequences of their stupidity. What's more, they will only be put in prison if they commit a crime, whether violent or not, or did you not register that bit?

Cheers.

Isin't it the instigators and supporters of prohibition that are keeping the drug barons in business? The United States government through sheer stupidity created Al Capone. Not the guy who wanted the freedom to booze after work. What about people growing weed for their own benefit? Or the people who buy from these people?

Also not all drug users are consistently high. It's like passing a law prohibiting drinkers from voting coz they'll be pissed at the polling station.

Jesus christ almighty.

[GypsyGoth]

I don't think criminals should have the vote.

They are in jail because they broke the law, they have lost their right be be a free citizen.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I don't think criminals should have the vote.

They are in jail because they broke the law, they have lost their right be be a free citizen.

I'm continually breaking a law I perceive is wrong because it is hindering my right to be a free citizen. What would you have done with me?

I'm of the opinion that not all criminals are evil harbringers of the apocalypse and that quite a few are just misguided fuck ups. That means they are members of society serving a punishment for a crime they have commited. It doesn't mean they are permanently black bagged out of society.

Why shouldn't non violent protestors, drug policy reform advocates and general seekers of change who went to prison for the first place for their beliefs not be allowed vote from inside in the hope that they can help change things?

Anyone who harbours such bizarre views is silently advocating for an Orwellian state. It's our law or we cut you off and tell you to go and fuck yourself. You scare the shit out of me sometimes, Angus. What's worse is that it's just a recreational activity for you. I like to shoot nazis in the back on my PlayStation. You like to complain about the great injustices of our world. It practically forms the backbone of 90% of your posts.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Stu

I'm continually breaking a law I perceive is wrong because it is hindering my right to be a free citizen. What would you have done with me?

Well I think your rights as a person are different to the rights the society grants you. If you get caught breaking the law (for whatever reasons, and regardless of crime) I think you should lose your right to vote. I think it's part of the punishment.

While I disagree with the laws making grass illegal, it is however still a law. Were you to go to jail because of it I feel it's fair you can't vote.

And I don't think criminals are evil, far from it, I think they're just people, but still they should be punished for their crime.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Stu

I'm continually breaking a law I perceive is wrong because it is hindering my right to be a free citizen. What would you have done with me?

I'm of the opinion that not all criminals are evil harbringers of the apocalypse and that quite a few are just misguided fuck ups. That means they are members of society serving a punishment for a crime they have commited. It doesn't mean they are permanently black bagged out of society.

Why shouldn't non violent protestors, drug policy reform advocates and general seekers of change who went to prison for the first place for their beliefs not be allowed vote from inside in the hope that they can help change things?

Anyone who harbours such bizarre views is silently advocating for an Orwellian state. It's our law or we cut you off and tell you to go and fuck yourself. You scare the shit out of me sometimes, Angus. What's worse is that it's just a recreational activity for you. I like to shoot nazis in the back on my PlayStation. You like to complain about the great injustices of our world. It practically forms the backbone of 90% of your posts.

If I scare the **** out of the likes of you, then my existence is not in vain. I'm not intimidated by the liberal bigots on this forum and will continue to state my views rejoicing in the knowledge that they irritate the hell out of the usual suspects.

To those who don't like the laws we all have to live by in the society we all have to live in, I suggest a nice little cave up in the mountains where they can do their own thing without bothering anyone else, or being bothered by others.

[Shaun]

But where is the correlation between breaking the law (which in itself is a very broad and vague term - you can't compare murderers with tax evaders) and wanting to vote Labour?

[Stu]

I'm gobsmacked. I don't even know what to say.

Anyone know where I can pick up a V For Vendetta quote book?

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Shaun

But where is the correlation between breaking the law (which in itself is a very broad and vague term - you can't compare murderers with tax evaders) and wanting to vote Labour?

Well I see voting as a right for all law biding people. If people go to jail they lose loads of privileges and voting is one of them.

Originally Posted by Stu

I'm gobsmacked. I don't even know what to say.

Anyone know where I can pick up a V For Vendetta quote book?

I know I have strange views.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Well I see voting as a right for all law biding people. If people go to jail they lose loads of privileges and voting is one of them.

Well I'd have thought losing the privelege of where to go, what to do, etc. would come part of the punishment But I still don't understand the thinking behind "right, you've set fire to a building, that means you can't vote any more".

Like - those who're imprisoned for animal cruelty lose the right to keep animals. That's understandable. But unless the crime you've committed is to do with rigging elections I don't see why you can't get to use your democracy.

[MTVN]

I agree with Shaun and angus please stop with the "usual suspects" jibes and your whole "wooly-minded liberals" rhetoric, it adds nothing to the debate.

The vote should be something that all humans should have, it is a right I consider to be universal, I dont think you can pick and choose who deserves to be able to vote and who doesnt. When you do that you elevate one set of humans over another, essentially treating them as subhuman.

This is always a contentious issue and while prisoners do lose their liberty when they're sentenced they dont also lose their human rights, and are still treated with dignity as human beings; I personally feel the vote is a part of that.

But then I can see the arguments against it, it really is one issue where I am close to being undecided

[CookieDough4000]

Originally Posted by MTVN

The vote should be something that all humans should have, it is a right I consider to be universal, I dont think you can pick and choose who deserves to be able to vote and who doesnt. When you do that you elevate one set of humans over another, essentially treating them as subhuman.

I don't think you've thought through what you've just said. Should ten year olds and people in France be allowed to vote in British elections? You say that the vote is a 'universal' 'right' that 'all humans should have', and that we can't 'pick and choose who deserves to be able to vote', so I assume your answer is yes. Am I correct?

[Angus]

Originally Posted by CookieDough4000

I don't think you've thought through what you've just said. Should ten year olds and people in France be allowed to vote in British elections? You say that the vote is a 'universal' 'right' that 'all humans should have', and that we can't 'pick and choose who deserves to be able to vote', so I assume your answer is yes. Am I correct?

Yes, that is exactly what MTVN is saying. Unbelievable isn't it?
New Labour really did a number via the shambolic education system on a whole generation of suckers didn't they?

So glad I kept my kids out of the state system (and no, I didn't pay a penny in school fees, they both won scholarships having inherited their brains from me)

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by CookieDough4000

I don't think you've thought through what you've just said. Should ten year olds and people in France be allowed to vote in British elections? You say that the vote is a 'universal' 'right' that 'all humans should have', and that we can't 'pick and choose who deserves to be able to vote', so I assume your answer is yes. Am I correct?

Well we have to make a disticntion between adults and children because they are fundamentally different. Children arent allowed the vote because they arent considered to have the ability to make a correct decision, prisoners have it denied just out of a desire for retribution and revenge. Being a prisoner doesnt make you suddenly unable to decide who is best fit to run the government; like Dezzy said it wont suddenly mean the Stabby Stabby Kill Kill party will come into power.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well we have to make a disticntion between adults and children because they are fundamentally different. Children arent allowed the vote because they arent considered to have the ability to make a correct decision, prisoners have it denied just out of a desire for retribution and revenge. Being a prisoner doesnt make you suddenly unable to decide who is best fit to run the government; like Dezzy said it wont suddenly mean the Stabby Stabby Kill Kill party will come into power.

and what about 'adults' who are in no real position to understand what a vote is, what effect is has, or who (through no fault of their own) simply have not (will not ever) reach emotional or intellectual maturity.

What about those adults (not the majority I grant you), that who have no idea what planet they're on, on any given dy, never mind being able to tell you which political party is in government - those who are in the position of the only thing mattering to them is how their are going to get their next fix? (I am talking of those who are seriously in the realms of life threatning drug addiction levels). Those 'adults' for example like the mother of young Baby Alex - a woman who wasn't fit enough to provide basic care for her own flesh and blood....... if she can't make a decision or be responsible on such a basic and rudimentary basis, how are people of that ilk able to be responsible enough to cast a vote over how the country is run? (I know...very very extreme example, but I'm just 'putting it out there) - for the purposes of debate.

Surely stating every human being, then chipping that to stating 'every adult' doesn't solve the problem (or answer the question).

As for the original OP. It's one I have mixed views on - dependant on the type of crime. Murders, rapists, drug dealers.....No I don't think they should be allowed to vote.

But to sweep everyone with that 'in prison rule', also means the poor little pensioner who did nothing wrong all their lives, worked 40 odd years and then fell foul of the law as far as not paying their rates are concerned / refusing to cut down a tree - and all other nature of ludicrious imprisonments. That's where the 'no vote for all prisoners' falls down.

What's the ideal solution? I'm not entirely sure.

[CookieDough4000]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well we have to make a disticntion between adults and children because they are fundamentally different. Children arent allowed the vote because they arent considered to have the ability to make a correct decision, prisoners have it denied just out of a desire for retribution and revenge. Being a prisoner doesnt make you suddenly unable to decide who is best fit to run the government; like Dezzy said it wont suddenly mean the Stabby Stabby Kill Kill party will come into power.

But that's different from what you originally said. You said the vote is a fundamental human right - like the right to food or the right to life, it is not contingent on a person's abilities or status. And you've only answered half of my question. What about people from France, or Venezuela, or Morocco? Should they be allowed to vote in British elections? Are they not as mentally capable as people from Britain?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by CookieDough4000

But that's different from what you originally said. You said the vote is a fundamental human right - like the right to food or the right to life, it is not contingent on a person's abilities or status. And you've only answered half of my question. What about people from France, or Venezuela, or Morocco? Should they be allowed to vote in British elections? Are they not as mentally capable as people from Britain?

Hmm, I see your point. Perhaps my wording was slightly wrong when I described it as a "fundamental human right", I would support lowering the voting age to 16, maybe even 14 but not for all children because they wouldnt have developed the required formal thought process. And those living abroad shouldnt vote because they will not be subject to the laws put in place by the ruling party; prisoners will be.