[jaxie]

https://theconversation.com/how-iran...otesting-91439

I haven't seen a thread about this yet and it's interesting so I thought I'd start one with his article that gives a bit of the history.

Basically Iranian women have been protesting against the government by taking their hijabs off in public. It's quite ironic as wearing the hijab was also used as protest when the Shah was trying to reform and modernise the country before he was overthrown. So the whole thing has sort of come full circle.

As you know I am not a fan of religious uniforms like he hijab because I feel that the implication that a young woman is not modest because you can see her hair is incredibly mysogynistic and sexist. I find it quite moving that the young women in Iran are uncovering their hair to tell their government to back off with the control, particularly when there are moves in this country in some schools to force much younger girls to wear it.

Do others have any thoughts to share on this?

[y.winter]

I think it's a good thing, of course and I wish them well. Brave and dangerous.

[arista]

Originally Posted by y.winter

I think it's a good thing, of course and I wish them well. Brave and dangerous.

Some have been arrested , sadly.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by y.winter

I think it's a good thing, of course and I wish them well. Brave and dangerous.

...very much as winter has said, I wish them well for their bravery .....

...I do agree with Niamh also, in that any ‘changes’ must be grounded in those whose lives and individuality are feeling oppression by the hijab or many other cultural or religious clothing, although there are some areas where ‘security’ has to be considered as the prime thing...because ‘banning’ by western countries only adds another layer of oppression to the already oppressed...which really serves no positive purpose of any progression which would be hoped for...

...I don’t personally believe in the banning of hijabs in primary schools...I completely understand the perspective of why it would be believed to be the thing though...but for me, that isn’t looking at the child’s perspective completely...yes a young girl should always be made to feel the same value as a young boy in every area and in every way...but I think it’s wrong for schools to say, which they would be essentially doing in the banning of...I or we think your parents are wrong, we think they’re oppressing, I or we don’t believe in your culture of your parents culture, or religion, when that child would probably have very loving and caring parents and family ...it’s a really wrong message to be ‘adding’ to that child...and there are many ‘parenting messages’ or actions or ways that we wouldn’t necessarily believe in as being a ‘right or positive message’, which wouldn’t involve the wearing of a specific item of clothing...that the ‘careful’ addressing of is important so as to not convey any negative reflection of a parent onto a child...if a child themselves were to say to me...I don’t feel comfortable wearing this hijab, because it’s all scratchy on my head or because, I want to be like many others who don’t wear it in this school..then that for me personally would be the time to address with a parent ..and to look at whether others who wore hijabs felt the same etc...because of those who would be happy to wear one and who may love doing so, it’s their consideration and individuality also...many primary school adopt a Traditional British Values Policy...and the fundamental ethos of that is to show and teach tolerance, understanding and respect for all cultures, all religions, all politics, all races etc and not feel prejudice against...

...anyways, I watched a documentary a while ago...young Muslim girls../..teenage girls and those entering their teenage years were making decisions themselves about whether they would adopt their cultural clothing more or whether they would be more Western in their clothing...of the few taking part in the documentary, they all decided differently and for their own individual reasons in making their own choices...some female siblings deciding differently also because even within a family unit, obviously they’re all and we are all individuals and I think has to be considered and respected also in it’s freedom of choice, as opposed to removing one freedom of choice...which I don’t personally believe is ever a solution in progression...

[Niamh.]

I think this is where the protests against Hijabs etc should come from, those who wear them. Us in the west trying to force them to take them off is only doing what we're trying to stop.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think this is where the protests against Hijabs etc should come from, those who wear them. Us in the west trying to force them to take them off is only doing what we're trying to stop.

But surely a line must be drawn with some primary school children being forced to wear it. Otherwise the message we are allowing little girls to have is that there is something wrong with them that needs covering while their brothers are perfect. That's pretty awful.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

But surely a line must be drawn with some primary school children being forced to wear it. Otherwise the message we are allowing little girls to have is that there is something wrong with them that needs covering while their brothers are perfect. That's pretty awful.

I don't disagree with you but I still think it needs to come from within that group for a real meaningful change to come about and I'm sure it will

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't disagree with you but I still think it needs to come from within that group for a real meaningful change to come about and I'm sure it will

I don't really understand the why of waiting it seems to give in to the demands perhaps forever for hard line imposers of Muslim dress on primary school children to get a clue. In my view as a country we can take this issue out of schools by saying that is unacceptable. What they do in their own time is their own problem. To say nothing seems so wrong.

The thing is, we wouldn't endorse children wearing say Nazi paraphernalia to school. So why must we pussy foot around religious groups that are promoting a misogynistic pov?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't really understand the why of waiting it seems to give in to the demands perhaps forever for hard line imposers of Muslim dress on primary school children to get a clue. In my view as a country we can take this issue out of schools by saying that is unacceptable. What they do in their own time is their own problem. To say nothing seems so wrong.

The thing is, we wouldn't endorse children wearing say Nazi paraphernalia to school. So why must we pussy foot around religious groups that are promoting a misogynistic pov?

I fervently believe that any Western country that wants to ban a garment that promotes inequality and contravenes its equality laws it should be banned. Those that choose to come and live here should respect that. If they don't they should live in a country where such views are shared - not to, at worst, try to force their views on the indigenous population or at best expect them to tolerate it. If the shoe were on the other foot it would be very different.

It is definely a step in the right direction when Muslim women stand up for themselves in this way. It also takes a lot of courage for women to do so in such a country and is an issue that should be addressed everywhere but of course it will have more significance when it is Muslim women themselves standing up to be counted. Good on them.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't really understand the why of waiting it seems to give in to the demands perhaps forever for hard line imposers of Muslim dress on primary school children to get a clue. In my view as a country we can take this issue out of schools by saying that is unacceptable. What they do in their own time is their own problem. To say nothing seems so wrong.

The thing is, we wouldn't endorse children wearing say Nazi paraphernalia to school. So why must we pussy foot around religious groups that are promoting a misogynistic pov?

I don't think comparing Nazis and Muslims is really a fair comparison tbh however much i agree with your opinions on Hijabs and misogyny within religion (which isn't just in the Muslim religion tbf)

[Livia]

The women taking part in this are incredibly brave. What other religion makes women cover themselves from head to toe.... because if a man gets lustful, it's the woman's fault? The same religion that encouraged the FGM of over 200 million women alive today, with 3 million girls at risk every year. Hard to believe in 2018. I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm pro-women. And Niamh's right, I think, that the fightback must start with the Muslim women themselves.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

The women taking part in this are incredibly brave. What other religion makes women cover themselves from head to toe.... because if a man gets lustful, it's the woman's fault? The same religion that encouraged the FGM of over 200 million women alive today, with 3 million girls at risk every year. Hard to believe in 2018. I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm pro-women. And Niamh's right, I think, that the fightback must start with the Muslim women themselves.

That's a wonderful post Livia but I think when it comes down to primary school children as young as seven it's up to us a country to say that school is not the place for religious dress. Even the Quran says puberty.

IDK maybe I was an odd little girl but if I was told I had to cover my hair at 7 to be modest I would have wanted to know why Jessica Brown didn't cover hers and what was wrong with my hair that wasn't wrong with hers and why brothers hair was ok and mine wasn't. It seems an awful burden to put on a child.

[Niamh.]

No disrespect to you personally but your post reminds me of that little moment of embarrassment when some people say oh I like Ann as a housemate but I don't agree with her views.

What is the problem with saying that? I'm sure I did say that btw, I do like her as a HM but alot of her opinions are s**t I don't see what point you're trying to make here?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No disrespect to you personally but your post reminds me of that little moment of embarrassment when some people say oh I like Ann as a housemate but I don't agree with her views.

What is the problem with saying that? I'm sure I did say that btw, I do like her as a HM but alot of her opinions are s**t I don't see what point you're trying to make here?

I don't know, but it strikes a chord with me like people are saying well I like this person or I agree with this but my peers will think I'm like her if I don't do a disclaimer. Or something. I'm not really sure where it comes from or what motivates it. I've even followed along and done it myself to a degree with Ann I think on a few posts and then wondered why I did that.

I suppose in the post where I picked up on it, it makes me feel like somewhere you are afraid there is something wrong with what I'm saying, or that people will view it that way so although you kind of agree you need to disclaim it so you don't appear as bad?

I'm not picking on you Naimh so don't take it that way, I just notice people doing that a lot over Brexit and more recently Ann and I suppose I think it's worth mentioning or asking about. Like is there a reason why people do that?

I mean if you said you liked Ann as a housemate I wouldn't take that as an admission that you agree with everything she ever said and did in her life and every vote she made in parliament.

If you said you support the governments position on Brexit I don't really need to know that you didn't vote for it.

Anyway are we going a bit off topic here and likely to get a spanking?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't know, but it strikes a chord with me like people are saying well I like this person or I agree with this but my peers will think I'm like her if I don't do a disclaimer. Or something. I'm not really sure where it comes from or what motivates it. I've even followed along and done it myself to a degree with Ann I think on a few posts and then wondered why I did that.

I suppose in the post where I picked up on it, it makes me feel like somewhere you are afraid there is something wrong with what I'm saying, or that people will view it that way so although you kind of agree you need to disclaim it so you don't appear as bad?

I'm not picking you Naimh so don't take it that way, I just notice people doing that a lot over Brexit and more recently Ann and I suppose I think it's worth mentioning or asking about. Like is there a reason why people do that?

I mean if you said you liked Ann as a housemate I wouldn't take that as an admission that you agree with everything she ever said and did in her life and every vote she made in parliament.

If you said you support the governments position on Brexit I don't really need to know that you didn't vote for it.

Anyway are we going a bit off topic here and likely to get a spanking?

Well I know exactly the reason why I would have said that re Ann, it's because I do think alot of her opinions are horrendous and I want to make it clear where my stance on that is?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well I know exactly the reason why I would have said that re Ann, it's because I do think alot of her opinions are horrendous and I want to make it clear where my stance on that is?

I get what you are saying. I guess I'm trying to say that I wouldn't have thought that you were an ardent supporter of all her views if you didn't say that. I don't think one necessarily goes hand in hand with the other. IDK if I'm making sense.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I get what you are saying. I guess I'm trying to say that I wouldn't have thought that you were an ardent supporter of all her views if you didn't say that. I don't think one necessarily goes hand in hand with the other. IDK if I'm making sense.

Ok but why am I not allowed say that anyway?

[Beso]

Why all the fuss now? Iranian women have been protesting this for over 20yrs now.

[Northern Monkey]

Good on them.Proper feminists with a real cause.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Good on them.Proper feminists with a real cause.

Hmmmmmmmmmm..... Monkey. I'm going to leave that comment hanging before I drag it off topic :-)

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

Hmmmmmmmmmm..... Monkey. I'm going to leave that comment hanging before I drag it off topic :-)

Yeah yeah i know,Gender pay gap,rape culture,male patriarchal society,bathe in male tears yada yada blah blah

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yeah yeah i know,Gender pay gap,rape culture,male patriarchal society,bathe in male tears yada yada blah blah

Don't make me come round there and show you what it's like to be oppressed.....

[Denver]

Women will never be treated equally in those sort of countries unless they elect a leader who is in their favour

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Women will never be treated equally in those sort of countries unless they elect a leader who is in their favour

And even the. Benazir Bhutto did about as much for women in Pakistan as Queen Victoria did for women in the 1900s. Nuffink... as they say on Jeremy Kyle.

[Maru]