[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Coming from a male perspective.

Many women would not be comfortable sharing bsthrooms with men - it doesn't matter whether you agree with that or not, that is how many women feel and such decisions should be theirs, not men's.

It's not just about sex crimes although this is undoubtedly an issue as most victims of sex crimes are female and most perpetrators are male, that is fact.

It is also about about simple things such as comfort, dignity and privacy - things that often affect/bother women more than men. You don't understand that, as a woman I do.

It really isn't for men to say women shouldn't be 'allowed' their own toilets/bathrooms.

Just to play devils advovate here for a second - on what basis have you assumed I am a man? My name? You've never seen a photo of me (not that that would be an indicator either) so why have you presumed I am? I expect someone will quote this with the perennially unfunny and overdone 'did you just assume my gender' but I'm interested, considering the only thing you know of me is the text you're reading on a screen

Considering I'm a feminist, please don't patronise me by pointing out facts I already know. For what it's worth, many women who've I spoken to about this issue agree with me and don't understand why toilets are segregated and would have no issue using a unisex toilet (I get the feeling people tend to misunderstand what they actually are too, generally they're not a room full of cubicles in the regular sense but rather a collection of disabled-esque toilets that are little rooms with a floor to ceiling door and sink). Perhaps as the article surmised, it's a millennial thing.

The solution then - if people wish to continue operating on futile gendered lines - is to provide three sets of toilets, to give everyone a choice. Because while you're sat here (partially justified) lecturing me on how a woman's feelings are important to this issue, you're forgetting that if you aren't trans yourself, you aren't considering the experiences of trans people. It works both ways.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is true, however at the moment if you see a bloke in the womens, you can tell them to piss off or complain. If this 'gender identity bill' gets passed (in the UK, not USA) then gender identity trumps sex and you cannot do this anymore. You would be committing a hate crime by going to walk into the loo, seeing a hairy biker and walking back out because of this, as this would be bigoted as he 'is a woman too'. Its all silly when you look deep enough into it. Basically, if 'gender'' trumps sex, ****ing sexism can no longer be defined by law either! Sacked for breastfeeding? Not sexist...men can breastfeed too. And so on...

I do feel deeply sorry for transsexual people who have been caught in this cross fire as as I said, they have been using their chosen sex facilities for years and years with no issue. So they are being harmed also by all of this bollocks. A law isn't needed and will ONLY help those wishing to abuse it.

New builds, make everything communal, fair enough. Convert older places if you can afford it. But to say the sexed areas are open to all? What help does this do anyone? It certainly does not help transsexual people who are already using the female areas as they are scared of the male violence in the males...given any male can now stroll in anyway. I use this as an example as I am yet to see any complaints the other way round, infact from what I have seen transmen do not want to use the mens...

I don't think it would open the can of worms you think it would. Put it this way, there is no reason why at this moment a 'biological' female (for arguments sake we'll say in the possession of breasts and a vagina) who identifies as a female but has a beard and short hair (i.e. is 'unfeminine' in their appearance) couldn't and wouldn't enter a woman's toilet. What happens then? If we separate toilets on sex, the only way it could be policed would be through mandatory and intrusive inspection upon entry.

What this of course comes down to is the problematic and silly ideas about how both women and men should dress and appear to the world. We need to stop assuming that women and men must both dress and appear a certain way before they can be assumed to be 'real' men and women because our ideas of what constitute 'proper' masculinity and femininity are culturally formed.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Adam hasn't said that tbf. Also the overwhelming amount of sexual crime is committed by males. 95% I believe it is. So it kind of is an issue...clearly

Correct, but is it overwhelmingly committed in public toilets by strangers? I'm guessing not.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Male and female are not a state in ones head. They are a biological reality. Honestly..I have seen articles and such claiming that sex is the social construct No dear, that would be 'gender'.

I don't particularly want to get into this now but I'm actually writing an entire chapter of my dissertation on this, one I only began after having discovered through reading that it's not actually as unproblematic as one might assume (I used to hold the same position that you did up until a couple of months ago). So come back to me in three months, and I should hopefully be able to go into this a bit deeper

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Actually thinking about it...sexuality is no longer allowed to exist by law if this gender thing happens. LGB people will no longer have protections as...chosing sexual partners will only be down to personal choice rather than actually being straight/gay? Which leads us back to gay being a choice as its now just 'personal choice' for a man to be exclusively attracted to the male sex, and vice versa, no different to preferring tall people or whatever? And being straight/gay will be bigoted in itself as it is refusing to acknowledge ones chosen gender identity? This is the natural conclusion that I can see. Though I may be overthinking this. If sex no longer actually matters at all and it is bigoted to say it does (in any area) or that it is more important that 'gender' (which is a feeling in ones head, not measurable) then...everything that has roots in sex is actually bigoted...

Again, would rather have this discussion in a couple of months but on the slightly related issue of sexuality, demarcating one's sexual desires into neat little categories is also problematic and not as inherent as you might think. The work of Michel Foucault points to how discourses around sex brought into being the identity categories we work with today.