[Livia]

A fine post, Nedusa.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I very doubt that either of us are xenophobic,racist or pea-brained. I do think however that people in this Country have lost the ability to stand up and shout loudly when their quality of life is constantly denigrated to line the pockets of the rich and powerful.

Not wanting rampant uncontrolled immigration does not make anyone racist, even the label xenophobic is a little hard to apply as the problem is not with foreigners per se, but with the huge numbers of people who bring with them vastly differing cultures together with toxic religious beliefs (which drive their culture more or less).

The Cultural identity of large parts of most of our Cities have had the heart torn out of them in the last 50 years thanks to decisions taken by our Political paymasters, decisions which were never voted on by the GBP, in an effort to sustain or increase profit, we have had to watch the popoulation of this relatively tiny Island increase from 50 million in 1950 to 65 million today and the projection is it will hit 72 million by 2050.

In the same time frame our infrastructure has grown only slightly thus putting huge pressure on all of our services.

By highlighting these issues in no way am I displaying racism or xenophobia just common sense.

We need a moratorium on immigration for a few years and then strict limits or quotas allowing only people who can add benefit or quality into our Country.

As for the EU well this whole failed European project is just giving legitimacy to this very uncontrolled immigration and for that reason alone it has failed.

This is why people must vote UKIP not because there is a cat in hells chance they may get into power, but rather they might make the bigger parties see the will of the people and they may in turn examine their policies also.

I wholly agree with Livia that the above is "a fine post" (as usual) Nedusa, and - you know - that my use of: " xenophobic,racist or pea-brained" was sarcasm which would hopefully save certain of the pro-EU lobby from having to falsely claim as much.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

No ...No... No

I agree with Truth on this, we should leave the EU immediately as it does not help the UK and has in my opinion been the main reason this Country is sinking fast.

From every viewpoint the EU is a monster, an uncontrolled expensive behemoth, a political organisation that has at it's heart a sinister ultimate agenda to make all European Countries divest their sovereignty to a faceless elite.

This was never what the European Union was meant to be, it was founded as a free trade movement and has been hi jacked to some quasi European super state.

I hate it, I hate the way we do not seem to have any say in what we do and what laws we can pass, I hate the obscene amounts of money we have to pay to keep other lazy,feckless countries afloat.

I really hate the uncontrolled and never ending immigration of peoples into this country some of whom actually want to destroy this country and kill it's citizens.

I hate the way they never integrate preferring to make their home country in our Country and fcuk the rest of us.

I hate the way the Health service has been used and abused by every Tom,Dick or Harry or should I say Mustapha,Mohammed or Ahmed. Our Health Service was never designed to give free healthcare to every sick person in the World.

I hate the way there are hundresd upon hundreds of dirty,lazy immigrants massing in Calais waiting to come over into the UK to bleed it dry. I also detest the way the French think it is not their problem and moan about the numbers and plead for the UK to take these filthy beggars.

We don't them - send them back to wherever the hell they came from.

This Country is Full and is creaking at the joints it cannot cope with anymore immigrants the roads are full, the hospitals are full, the Schools are full

the UK is full............please give us a break.

We need only to trade with Europe nothing more, open borders are a complete disaster for the UK, how more people cannot see that I don't know.

Vote for UKIP..........the only party that has at it's heart the pledge to try and tackle this madness...

-------------- Rant over----------------

Good you must agree with who you like,but you are wrong,in part, sadly.

As with Switzerland, who are not a member of the EU but trade with the EU, they still have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also other conditions imposed by the EU, that since they are out, they can do nothing about.

It will firstly cost us more to trade with the EU, businesses here will have to pay more to trade with the EU because they in a non EU country.

If you think that will not have repercussions against the UK and harm the UK, fine you go for it and believe all the negative UKIP rhetoric.

You will find not much will change however,if the UK wants to trade with the EU.
We will save whatever we pay in annually to the EU's budget, however we will be paying well over the odds afterwards to trade with them and have no say at all as to any of it once out.

If we came out and didn't want to trade with the EU,that would make more sense.
However in that case,with no access to the EU markets then, seriously how many businesses and other investing countries do you really think would want to come to the UK then and how many investments and businesses here because we are in the EU, do you really seriously think would stay if we were out totally.
I'd say virutally 'none'.

Coming out but having in place a trading agreement will leave us having to accept still strict EU conditions as to same, and also the free movement of EU citizens still too.
'That is a fact' that UKIP want the voters to overlook.
Anyway, you and I will never agree on the EU but I for one, have no wish whatsoever to take such a gamble with 'all' the countries of the UKs' future like that and create all that uncertainty either.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Good you must agree with who you like,but you are wrong,in part, sadly.

As with Switzerland, who are not a member of the EU but trade with the EU, they still have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also other conditions imposed by the EU, that since they are out, they can do nothing about.

It will fristly cost us more to trade with the EU, businesses her will have to pay more to trade with the EU because they in a non EU country.

If you think that will not have repercussions against the UK and harm the UK, fine you go for it and believe all the negative UKIP rhetoric.

You will find not much will change however,if the UK wants to trade with the EU.
We will save whatever we pay in annually to the EU's budget, however we will be paying well over the odds afterwards to trade with them and have no say at all as to any of it once out.

If we came out and didn't want to trade with the EU,that would make more sense.
However in that case,with no access to the EU markets then, seriously how many businesses and other investing countries do you really think would want to come to the UK then and how many investments and businesses here because we are in the EU, do you really seriously think would stay if we were out totally.
I'd say virutally 'none'.

Coming out but having in place a trading agreement will leave us having to accept still strict EU conditions as to same, and also the free movement of EU citizens still too.
'That is a fact' that UKIP want the voters to overlook.
Anyway, you and I will never agree on the EU but I for one, have no wish whatsoever to take such a gamble with 'all' the countries of the UKs' future like that and create all that uncertainty either.

Do you think that if we did exit the EU things could actually get any worse..?

I for one think the pro Europe contingent have had 40 years to show being in the EU has made Britain a wealthier, healthier and happier place.

I suspect sadly they have failed.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Do you think that if we did exit the EU things could actually get any worse..?

I for one think the pro Europe contingent have had 40 years to show being in the EU has made Britain a wealthier, healthier and happier place.

I suspect sadly they have failed.

I firmly and 100% believe that if we left the EU after all this time, then yes things would get a great deal worse.

The UK is not a wealthier place due to the incompetence of govts;over the decades in the main, not planning right and doing right a fair bit of the time.
Also, govt; have often failed to win the best terms possible from the EU on several issues.

Not the EU's fault totally, most times they have never likely been asked for change.
However to walk away now, with all the uncertainty that would entail as I said before is not a risk I would support for Northen Ireland's, Scotland's Wales and England's long term futures.no way.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Do you think that if we did exit the EU things could actually get any worse..?

I for one think the pro Europe contingent have had 40 years to show being in the EU has made Britain a wealthier, healthier and happier place.

I suspect sadly they have failed.

'Tis but more; "Gonna" and "Woulda" after 40 long years of "Coulda" and "Shoulda".

We were taken in (nice phrase that) by politicians with covert vested interests, have been kept in by politicians with covert vested interests, and it is politicians with covert vested interests who are still striving to keep us in - in face of the irrefutable evidence of 40 years of unmitigated and soon to be irreparable damage which being 'in' has done to this country.

I am not LABOUR. I am not TORY. I am not UKIP or GREEN or LIB DEM. So therefore, I am not blindly slavish to any political party nor therefore to any fixed ideologies.

I weigh up the evidence. Cross check the supposed 'facts'. Examine policies and manifestos. Then - before making my mind up, I USE MY KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRACK RECORDS OF THE PRINCIPLES and USE MY PERSONAL DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE ACTUAL POLICIES OF THE GOVERNING PARTY HAVE DONE TO THIS COUNTRY. (Or what the policies of successive governments have done to it).

Our criticisms of the governments of the past 40 years are based on actual HISTORICAL EVIDENCE. Our detractors criticisms of NIGEL FARAGE and UKIP are based on PERSONAL PREJUDICE, naive acceptance of PROPAGANDA, and on an IRRATIONAL DECLARATION OF WHAT HE WILL DO IN THE FUTURE.

It's laughable and ironic, that certain of the most voracious exponents of the above 'anti-Farage' sooth-sayers, are the very same who decry God and Religion because there is no 'scientific' proof for them.

SOOTHSAYING and PREDICTION is OBVIOUSLY different though when it comes to Farage's FUTURE actions. .

[empire]

the eu is collapsing, and the left wing are living in cuckoo land, in greece the people are looking through rubbish bins for food, economists have warned britain that we need to leave the eu state, or face being bankrupt,

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by the truth

exactly. its the titanic. its too big it can be turned around it cant be changed, get off before it inevitably sinks....587 page constitution , what a sick joke

A good analogy

[Northern Monkey]

Stay in the EU and have no control over our borders,Have them dictate our laws and eventually make us lose our currency and have no power to change European policies
Or
Leave the EU and take back our borders,The power to govern our country as we see fit,create our own laws,keep our currency and still have no power to change European policies
Hmm....

[MTVN]

Was hearing about this report on the news tonight, from Open Europe a group who are frequently critical of the EU and the way it is managed:

Britain will be forced to have even more open borders if it leaves the European Union or face losing up to Ł55 billion a year by 2030 - a sum that could trigger a recession, a comprehensive analysis has found.

In a boost for David Cameron's case for reforming the EU, the Open Europe think tank has found that Britain could lose 2.2 per cent of its GDP in the event that it closes its borders following a "hostile" exit from the EU.

The analysis suggests that Britain will only enjoy significant benefits after leaving Europe if it retains freedom of movement with the EU, commits to free trade and cuts regulations to an extent that would make "Margaret Thatcher look like a socialist".

The report represents a significant challenge to Nigel Farage's demands for Britain to leave Europe while supporting David Cameron's position.

Mr Cameron is attempting to reform Britain's relationship with the European Union ahead of a proposed referendum in 2017.

The report says that if the European Union "manages to overcome its current economic problems" and carry out reforms then "the cost of Brexit relative to remaining within the EU will be higher".

Matts Persson, director of Open Europe, said Mr Farage faces some "very difficult political decisions".

He said: "You have some questions to answer about exactly what you want to see. Is it a free trading, Hong Kong Britain with very Liberal politics including on migration or is it what probably most of your [Ukip] voters want, to shut the borders and shut the world out which would mean a loss in terms of Britain's GDP and economic competitiveness?"

Full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...kept-open.html

[Z]

I think in theory the EU is a brilliant idea. European nations have long ceased to be a major source of power in the world so it makes sense for them all to club together to wield their collective knowledge and might to match the US, Russia, China et al in the international arena.

The reality is that what started out as an economic union quickly turned into a highly political way of amputating countries from the former USSR's grasp to the point where too many cooks are spoiling the broth, nothing is getting done and the EU has stopped being about the collective trading might of various western European nations and has instead become this pseudo-political collection of countries who can't function as a whole, they function as 28 individual pieces; whose sole purpose seems to be to expand and try and improve the standard of living of its poorest members.

That in itself is a noble thing - try and unite Europe and improve the lives of all. But it's not what the EU is for and it's not what I want to be a part of. I think the EU needs to be restarted and modernised, completely. It should be an effective one voice for Europe. Member states need to stop doing bilateral deals with outsiders; we need to start acting as a whole. The UK leaving the EU is the political equivalent of throwing a tantrum - we'd be quitting to show our dissatisfaction but we'd have nowhere to go. The USA won't have us and it's in nobody's interests to go wade into another Middle Eastern cluster**** as the blind sidekick of Team America. We're more or less solely responsible for a large part of the world's poorest nations and their problems thanks to the British Empire, internationally we are not a liked nation. What we need is to enter into a trading powerhouse with Germany, France, the BeNeLux nations and maybe the Scandinavian nations too. That's about it - the rest of Europe is plagued with poverty and is economic deadweight - tourism driven economies won't help us be taken seriously on the international stage.

Let the EU remain a union for European countries to talk about how European they all are and then go behind each other's backs. Let's get a new version of it, a copy of the original, for making effective economic strides. That's what we need.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There is nothing to stop us continuing to trade with non-EU countries, and the amount of trading we do with them will increase dramatically once we leave the EU and are free from all its restrictive trade policies.

And we will not have a Ł66 Billion trade deficit and we will not have to pay Ł10 billion PA for the privilege.

Not to mention taking back control of our own Justice system, borders, and Farming and Fishing policies and a dozen other elements of sovereignty various treacherous governments have signed away to Brussels.

Is taking a seat in the WTO free and without proviso?

[lostalex]

no UK leader wants out of the EU because they know it will harm relations with the US. we are your greatest ally, but if you leave the Eu you will greatly reduce the influence you can have on world affairs.

The UK will not be as important to the US unless it is a major EU player.

The US will turn to Germany as it's major European ally if the Uk leaves the EU.

The UK has enjoyed favored son status in Europe BECAUSE of your relationship with the US, if you lose favor with the US you will lose most of your power in the region and the world.

If the UK leaves the EU i could even imagine the UK losing it's permanent security council status at the UN. the US might back India or Brazil to replace the UK at the UN.
Would the UK destroy relationships with both the US, and all the EU nations, just because there are a few too many polish people taking jobs, or a few too many romanians committing crimes?

No UK leader would ever risk that. You will not leave the EU.

You need the the US too much and you need the EU too much, and if you left the EU, you'd burn both bridges. I don't see how it would benefit the UK in any way.

[Livia]

It will make not a scrap of difference to the US. Furthermore, you're quite mistaken if you think that the US's stance on the EU will have any bearing on whether people here vote in or out.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

It will make not a scrap of difference to the US. Furthermore, you're quite mistaken if you think that the US's stance on the EU will have any bearing on whether people here vote in or out.

If the UK ceases to have real political power in Europe Livia,(which it will if it leaves the EU) \Do you really think the US will value the relationship? if so, why?

What else would the UK have to offer>? Germany would clearly become our best bet in Europe if you leave the EU.

Do you honestly think America would be such a strong UK ally if the UK has no power on the continent? for what?

The US has made clear in the last decade that we are not as impressed with the UK or Israel for that matter on the world stage.

our patience can only be stretched so thin, and i believe that leaving the EU would be the straw.

[Livia]

It's not up to the USA Alex, it's up to the British public. If the Tories get in, and if we do have a referendum, the very last thing on most people's minds will be, I wonder if the USA will be okay with this?

Your last sentence made me smile. Your patience? YOUR patience?? LOL... You overestimate the influence the USA has on the average Joe in the street here. We like your films, some of your music is okay... well done on having a black president. And butt out of our affairs.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's not up to the USA Alex, it's up to the British public. If the Tories get in, and if we do have a referendum, the very last thing on most people's minds will be, I wonder if the USA will be okay with this?

Your last sentence made me smile. Your patience? YOUR patience?? LOL... You overestimate the influence the USA has on the average Joe in the street here. We like your films, some of your music is okay... well done on having a black president. And butt out of our affairs.

if it's really up to the british people, so be it. but there's a reason the past leaders have held so close to the USA. Do you honestly believe that the UK would be as influential as powerful if it wasn't for the US backing and interest in having a strong ally IN EUROPE?

if you think the US just likes the UK, or because we speak the same language you'd be mistaken.

Germany and Japan and the UK are America's greatest allies in the world, and we conquered all of them in previous wars.

If you go it alone, don't expect the same benefits that being a strong ally of the US gave you before. I don't think most Brits appreciate that all that you have, the power you have in your region, and the economic prosperity are really al because of America's support. The rest of Europe hates you, but they still respect you because you have the USA standing behind you.

I wonder what the UK will look like to the world when you don't have the Giant USA standing directly behind you.

And how will you feel when that giant is instead standing behind Brussels?

[Kizzy]

The UK is becoming the nana nobody wants over at Christmas.

[lostalex]

I don't believe the political elite would ever allow a true separation from the EU. The fact that you were allowed to keep your own currency was an incredible priviledge to begin with.

Leaving the EU would be suicide for the UK.

Ofcourse the greatest trick would be if then the SNP passed their independence referendum and scotland joined the EU. then England would be left in the cold. That would be hilarious.

[the truth]

uk would be far stronger out of the current eu mess....the whole thing needs to be torn up
if we left lots would follow
just look at the state of it? 3 eu member countries have youth unemployment at over 50%? Italy overall unemployment is 23% france a so called giant has double to 11%....spain 12.6% .......growth is non existent

the ONLY economies doing ok are Germany and uk....but UK has CREATED MORE JOBS THAN THE REST OF EUROPE PUT TOGETHER IN THE LAST YEAR ...THATS WHAT AN UTTER FAILURE THE EU AND THE EURO REALLY IS
only the germans can work it as they control it all....but even their growth is poor as is their job creations and they are getting saddled with carrying the endless countries going bankrupt from Greece to Italy to Iceland and Portugal and spain and beyond..
the US constitution is a healthy 13 pages and was written before the states all merged...this nightmare is 587 pages of laws and is attempting to stream line 30 odd countries 500 million odd people with histories stretching back 1000s of years with different laws climates currencies cultures religions ways fo life qualities of life different strengths different weaknesses different skills different everything. its utterly insane you may as well go for a one world government. INSANE

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I don't believe the political elite would ever allow a true separation from the EU. The fact that you were allowed to keep your own currency was an incredible priviledge to begin with.

Leaving the EU would be suicide for the UK.

Ofcourse the greatest trick would be if then the SNP passed their independence referendum and scotland joined the EU. then England would be left in the cold. That would be hilarious.

Why would that be hilarious, Alex? If you hate us so much, why are you here?

Incidentally, the Scots voted to stay in the Union, you might have missed that.

Actually, that's all I've got to say to you on this. You have a really hazy grasp on the EU and what you're saying is just making you seem hilarious.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by the truth

uk would be far stronger out of the current eu mess....the whole thing needs to be torn up
if we left lots would follow
just look at the state of it? 3 eu member countries have youth unemployment at over 50%? Italy overall unemployment is 23% france a so called giant has double to 11%....spain 12.6% .......growth is non existent

the ONLY economies doing ok are Germany and uk....but UK has CREATED MORE JOBS THAN THE REST OF EUROPE PUT TOGETHER IN THE LAST YEAR ...THATS WHAT AN UTTER FAILURE THE EU AND THE EURO REALLY IS
only the germans can work it as they control it all....but even their growth is poor as is their job creations and they are getting saddled with carrying the endless countries going bankrupt from Greece to Italy to Iceland and Portugal and spain and beyond..
the US constitution is a healthy 13 pages and was written before the states all merged...this nightmare is 587 pages of laws and is attempting to stream line 30 odd countries 500 million odd people with histories stretching back 1000s of years with different laws climates currencies cultures religions ways fo life qualities of life different strengths different weaknesses different skills different everything. its utterly insane you may as well go for a one world government. INSANE

Have to agree with all of this............in fact our hand may be forced if the Greeks leave the EU , as this may start a domino effect with Portugal and possibly even Italy seeking better terms and ultimately defaulting.

In fact they may not even be much of an EU left for the UK to leave if things go really bad.

I bet in those circumstances David Cameron would not be able to offer the GBP a referendum quickly enough.

As you say in your post to try and control such a diverse number of Countries/cultures/religions etc... is practically impossible and once one Country leaves the writing I fear is on the wall.

Irrespective of what happens within the EU I still stand by my own view that we (UK) need to get out and get out now.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by lostalex

if it's really up to the british people, so be it. but there's a reason the past leaders have held so close to the USA. Do you honestly believe that the UK would be as influential as powerful if it wasn't for the US backing and interest in having a strong ally IN EUROPE?

if you think the US just likes the UK, or because we speak the same language you'd be mistaken.

Germany and Japan and the UK are America's greatest allies in the world, and we conquered all of them in previous wars.

If you go it alone, don't expect the same benefits that being a strong ally of the US gave you before. I don't think most Brits appreciate that all that you have, the power you have in your region, and the economic prosperity are really al because of America's support. The rest of Europe hates you, but they still respect you because you have the USA standing behind you.

I wonder what the UK will look like to the world when you don't have the Giant USA standing directly behind you.

And how will you feel when that giant is instead standing behind Brussels?

I wouldn't worry Lostalex and I agree that the USA would look to 'an' or other countries in the EU for future investments and setting up businesses there if the UK left the EU.

However we will not leave the EU because no govt; in the UK will hold a referendum at a time where the result looked too close to call or that the vote would result in a no to staying in.

It doesn't matter who we elect in May, even if it is the Conservatives,there will be 'no' referendum because I believe David Cameron,the well known political liar and con man,has no intention of ever holding one at all no matter what he says.

He will not hold one in any event even if he got his best possible result in the election and had an overall majority'
However he will not get an overal majority,he may be the largest party but even then he has his answer ready.
He has clearly said he would only hold an in out referendum if, 'he and the Conservatives' got an overall majority.

There is no referendum at all on the horizon for UK voters, unless they elected a UKIP govt; with an overall majority.
They are all being conned again by David Cameron and I hope more and more voters realise just how slippery he is as to his promises by polling day too.

You are right, the USA is the UK's strongest ally, the USA has repeatedly said, the UK should remain in the EU.
It is clear they could turn from the UK were we to leave as you point out.

I myself prefer to follow the guidance of the USA on this one, at least the USA is looking forward and not stuck in a rut looking backwards like,in the main 'the south' of England,'I stress England', because the rest of the UK is more forward looking too.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by lostalex

if it's really up to the british people, so be it. but there's a reason the past leaders have held so close to the USA. Do you honestly believe that the UK would be as influential as powerful if it wasn't for the US backing and interest in having a strong ally IN EUROPE?

if you think the US just likes the UK, or because we speak the same language you'd be mistaken.

Germany and Japan and the UK are America's greatest allies in the world, and we conquered all of them in previous wars.

If you go it alone, don't expect the same benefits that being a strong ally of the US gave you before. I don't think most Brits appreciate that all that you have, the power you have in your region, and the economic prosperity are really al because of America's support. The rest of Europe hates you, but they still respect you because you have the USA standing behind you.

I wonder what the UK will look like to the world when you don't have the Giant USA standing directly behind you.

And how will you feel when that giant is instead standing behind Brussels?

Hold on hold on...

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you're saying but...

In which war did the US "conquer" the UK??

[the truth]

ok guys lets all go bankrupt so baraack Obama will still call us twice a year lol
ps the EU was set up to get rid of red tape lol hows that worked out?