[Kizzy]

I fancied a go at one of these....

Ben is 22 his girlfriend just had a baby girl, he was laid off 6 days ago as there is no work in the area. Whilst at the post office cashing his giro the harrassed mum of 4 in front of hin in the queue sticks her purse with her £60 income support in the hood of the pram. On the way out she knocks the buggy on the door and her purse falls on the floor, the kids are screaming so she doesn't notice. Ben picks up the purse, hesitates then sticks it in his pocket.

Toby is 22 his wife laura just had their son james, he was made redundant after 18 months working for a local firm 6 days ago.
Whilst at the cash machine waiting to withdraw the last of his savings, the old lady in front steadys herself before making her way down the street. She has not taken her £60 withdrawal and it is still sticking out of the machine. Toby takes the money, hesitates then puts it in his wallet.

Of all the people in this dilemma who do you have the most sympathy for?
Who do you have the least sympathy for?.....

[GypsyGoth]

The screaming kids.

[Ammi]

..are you talking about the people who stole or the people they stole off...?

..the people who stole did wrong..the people who they stole off deserve equal sympathy....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..are you talking about the people who stole or the people they stole off...?

..the people who stole did wrong..the people who they stole off deserve equal sympathy....

Everybody involved in the story. ben, toby, the babies, the partners, the old woman, the lone parent, her kids......
If theres no intent is it really stealing?...

[Ammi]

..of course there is intent..they took something that didn't belong to them..they could have returned them to the people who they belonged them or handed them into the bank/post office..they intentionally stole....

..so the answer is yes, it is really stealing...no less than any other theft....

[Ammi]

..in the eyes of the law and morally...

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Everybody involved in the story. ben, toby, the babies, the partners, the old woman, the lone parent, her kids......
If theres no intent is it really stealing?...

in the eyes of the law its stealing.

[thesheriff443]

well i have left cash in a machine and had it handed back,i also gets lots of these types of situations,i always hand it back,

[Kizzy]

Well as this is a moral dilemma the law isn't the issue.
When I say intent to steal I mean there was no premeditation.
A split second judgement, does that make sense?
Neither man had any idea prior to that moment what he would do.
Does that make them as bad as muggers and shoplifters?

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Well as this is a moral dilemma the law isn't the issue.
When I say intent to steal I mean there was no premeditation.
A split second judgement, does that make sense?
Neither man had any idea prior to that moment what he would do.
Does that make them as bad as muggers and shoplifters?

in a way yes.

[Ammi]

..yes...

..if a murder isn't premeditated, it doesn't make the victim any less dead....

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yes...

..if a murder isn't premeditated, it doesn't make the victim any less dead....

but then its manslaugther not murder
but i know what you are saying.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

but then its manslaugther not murder
but i know what you are saying.

Lucky old you!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yes...

..if a murder isn't premeditated, it doesn't make the victim any less dead....

I really don't understand that analogy ammi,
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by kizzy

I really don't understand that analogy ammi,
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't.

its doing something that is wrong by chance or planning to do it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kizzy

I really don't understand that analogy ammi,
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't.

..you don't have to physically interact with someone to steal from them...that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever..

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you don't have to physically interact with someone to steal from them...that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever..

You mentioned murder not me!

[Nedusa]

Is this a moral dilemma or is it just theft plain and simple. Just because the circumstances of these thefts raise moral questions, it does not really detract from the theft itself.

[joeysteele]

Okay, the lady with the buggy and her purse dropping onto the ground,she is the one I feel sympathy for there, Ben should have made sure she got the purse back, since it would also likely have her name somewhere on it.Even moreso though since he saw the incident where she dropped it.
He was wrong although I feel sorry for his situation.

Again, the old lady leaving cash sticking out the machine,obviously you would feel sorry for her however,I have some sympathy too for Toby there since he was going to be down to the last of his savings knowingly.
Had she walked off and him not seen her leave the cash in the machine then I likely could understand him just keeping those funds.
However as again, he had seen her leave the cash there, then he should have called her back or took it to her.
I feel sorry for all of them though in a way.

The instances above though remind me of an incident when I was in my teens.
I had a friend who found a wallet once, fortunately for him, there were 6 of us with him when he found it,he handed it straight in to a Police station,however the owner said over £20 was missing from it.
Had my friend not had so many people with him at the time he found it,it could have got a bit unpleasant for him.
He swore after that,he'd never hand a wallet in again.

[Livia]

It's theft. There is no dilemma.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's theft. There is no dilemma.

but you didnt see it that way in the robin hood thread

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

but you didnt see it that way in the robin hood thread

Banks are insured so it's a win/win situation

[Livia]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

but you didnt see it that way in the robin hood thread

Stealing from a bank and giving the money to an orphanage isn't the same thing as pocketing someone's benefit or pension. Is it.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Livia

Stealing from a bank and giving the money to an orphanage isn't the same thing as pocketing someone's benefit or pension. Is it.

its no different,
what you use stolen money for should have no influence on the fact its theft.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

its no different,
what you use stolen money for should have no influence on the fact its theft.

Legally, no. But are these "moral" dilemmas, are they not?

If you want my legal opinion I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you, Sheriff.