[the truth]

Since devolution its utterly bewildering to me to see how what different directions these 2 nations have gone

Scotland has voted in 56 nationalist mps and only 3 from other parties

the welsh have seen a rise in the right wing with 11 tory seats and the ukip the 3rd highest votes

how on earth are these voting patterns so divergent

both countries were raped by thatchers cruel government, most have been unable to rebuild their industries due partly to the enormous EU regulations...

but the scots have a full parliament and the welsh an assembly

disposable income

wales £14623 per head
Scotland £16267
number of businesses per 10,000 people
wales 753
Scotland 740
gva per head
Scotland 20,013
wales 15401
public sector employment
wales 24%
Scotland 22.1%
unemployment rate
wales 6.8% same as England
Scotland 6.4%
the UK average identifiable spend per head was £8,788. Northern Ireland had the highest total identifiable public expenditure at £10,876 per head. This was followed by Scotland with £10,152 per head, and Wales at £9,709. England was the only country below the UK average with £8,529 per head


so why is Scotland flying off and doing better on all the figures? why are they so nationalistic and pro European?

my general impression from meeting the scots is they are pro European and feel they can get a far better deal with them than they can with Westminster
additionally they are somehow getting more public money per head than anyone else, due to the Barnett formula? seems rather odd theyre richer yet get more public cash than the welsh?

its important we understand whats going on up there.

now we have the snps rocking up to Westminster....a one party nation ..with a conservative government? just bizarre. the tories will bring more austerity and an in out eu referendum , yet the party the scots all vote for are anti austerity pro Europe? its going to be war

as for the welsh theyre a total enigma.....theyre phenomenally patriotic about their language their history etc yet not nationalistic at all and don't seem bothered about taking care of and running their own affairs

dave Cameron made a speech tonight stressing the need to devolve more powers, he seems to think that will help the 4 nations become stronger and actually re unite the union? hmmm perhaps he needs to re do the Barnett formula too

is that the key to wales? more powers for Cardiff bay? ive never felt a huge desire in wales since moving here for self rule nor is there much love for the welsh assembly. but would more powers enable the welsh to make the specific changes needed to improve their economy? ive always had the feeling despite labours dominance, the welsh are free spirited people at heart and more suited to a free market than the indoctrination of public sector jobs and left wing politics. they loved their trade unions to protect the workers and lead most of those revolutions but the staleness of public sector dominance seems to have hurt their economy

my concern with devolution is....yet another layer of politicians laws and more burocracy..we have councillors, am's , mps and meps too

what a mess

[user104658]

I think if one thing is abundantly clear from the election results, it's that Scottish and English people on the whole have COMPLETELY different political ideologies. This is why the whole "better together, we're all British!" campaign was in my opinion fundamentally flawed. We actually don't align at all.

Which is why, in my opinion, further (or full) devolution is the only real way, going forward, to keep the UK "United". To be essentially separate countries working very closely together. South-of-England politics and economics simply don't work for Scotland and there's no reason they should have to for the UK to be successful.

The same may very well be true for Wales. I'll be honest and say that I don't actually know all that much about Welsh politics.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think if one thing is abundantly clear from the election results, it's that Scottish and English people on the whole have COMPLETELY different political ideologies. This is why the whole "better together, we're all British!" campaign was in my opinion fundamentally flawed. We actually don't align at all.

Which is why, in my opinion, further (or full) devolution is the only real way, going forward, to keep the UK "United". To be essentially separate countries working very closely together. South-of-England politics and economics simply don't work for Scotland and there's no reason they should have to for the UK to be successful.

The same may very well be true for Wales. I'll be honest and say that I don't actually know all that much about Welsh politics.

England is far more anti Europe than England to say the least whereas the welsh are a total enigma....maybe if they had the oil and extra wealth of the scots theyd be more keen on breaking away. if they had an independence vote for the welsh im pretty certain it would be a landslide no

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think if one thing is abundantly clear from the election results, it's that Scottish and English people on the whole have COMPLETELY different political ideologies. This is why the whole "better together, we're all British!" campaign was in my opinion fundamentally flawed. We actually don't align at all.

Which is why, in my opinion, further (or full) devolution is the only real way, going forward, to keep the UK "United". To be essentially separate countries working very closely together. South-of-England politics and economics simply don't work for Scotland and there's no reason they should have to for the UK to be successful.

The same may very well be true for Wales. I'll be honest and say that I don't actually know all that much about Welsh politics.

"Yet the big reason for the SNP surge is the party’s success in propagating a view that Scotland is fundamentally different from the rest of the United Kingdom. They claim that it is more socially liberal, greener, and far more left-wing. That is bogus. Poll after poll shows that on almost any conceivable issue, including the ideal role and size of the state, Scots are little different from other Britons. Nonetheless, the notion of Scotland being so exceptional as to require separate statehood is potent."



http://www.economist.com/news/britai...jockalypse-now

[bots]

Originally Posted by MTVN

"Yet the big reason for the SNP surge is the party’s success in propagating a view that Scotland is fundamentally different from the rest of the United Kingdom. They claim that it is more socially liberal, greener, and far more left-wing. That is bogus. Poll after poll shows that on almost any conceivable issue, including the ideal role and size of the state, Scots are little different from other Britons. Nonetheless, the notion of Scotland being so exceptional as to require separate statehood is potent."



http://www.economist.com/news/britai...jockalypse-now

The snp have been very clever, they have played on the natural gripes that Scots have with the English and somehow made them what the SNP stands for. To me, it was never more clear when the SNP made it clear to everyone that Scotland's voice could only be heard if it was the SNP that represented them. Forget altogether that labour, tory and lib dem candidates are also Scottish, and therefore by definition represent Scotland.

They have also engaged the youth in politics by lowering the voting age for the referendum. Thus. as they come of age, they sign up to the party. Nationalism is predominately a youth culture. I freely admit that the first time I was able to vote, I voted SNP - look at me now

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

"Yet the big reason for the SNP surge is the party’s success in propagating a view that Scotland is fundamentally different from the rest of the United Kingdom. They claim that it is more socially liberal, greener, and far more left-wing. That is bogus. Poll after poll shows that on almost any conceivable issue, including the ideal role and size of the state, Scots are little different from other Britons. Nonetheless, the notion of Scotland being so exceptional as to require separate statehood is potent."



http://www.economist.com/news/britai...jockalypse-now

Another great post MTVN.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

"Yet the big reason for the SNP surge is the party’s success in propagating a view that Scotland is fundamentally different from the rest of the United Kingdom. They claim that it is more socially liberal, greener, and far more left-wing. That is bogus. Poll after poll shows that on almost any conceivable issue, including the ideal role and size of the state, Scots are little different from other Britons. Nonetheless, the notion of Scotland being so exceptional as to require separate statehood is potent."



http://www.economist.com/news/britai...jockalypse-now

I'm Scottish and lived in England for 3 years, my wife is English and has now lived in Scotland for 4 years. We would both tell you with some certainty that there are distinct social and political differences between Scotland and England. Less so with the North of England, but still clear and definite differences. It's not just about the SNP - if there aren't clear differences, how do you explain the fact that Scotland has NEVER voted for a conservative government, whereas the wider UK does so semi-regularly?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm Scottish and lived in England for 3 years, my wife is English and has now lived in Scotland for 4 years. We would both tell you with some certainty that there are distinct social and political differences between Scotland and England. Less so with the North of England, but still clear and definite differences. It's not just about the SNP - of there aren't clear differences, how do you explain the fact that Scotland has NEVER voted for a conservative government, whereas the wider UK does so semi-regularly?

Not exactly true:

In fact, from the turn of the twentieth century up until the 1970s, the Unionist Party, which became the Scottish Conservative Party in 1965, was a major political force, taking turns with its only real competitor, the Labour Party, to be the dominant force. So throughout the 1920s and 1930s, the Unionist Party regularly commanded between 40 and 50 per cent of the Scottish vote, a trend which continued after the Second World War. At the 1951 General Election, for instance, the Unionists, in alliance with the National Liberals and the Conservative Party, won the support of 1,349,298 Scots, amounting to 48 per cent of votes cast. The Labour Party polled slightly fewer on 47 per cent of the vote, winning the support of 1,330,244. Incredibly, this actually bucked the national trend, given that Winston Churchill’s triumphant Tories had actually won a slightly smaller share of the popular vote than Labour, despite it winning more seats.

And again at the 1955 election, Scotland showed its Unionist, Tory-approving colours, with 50.1 per cent of Scots voting Unionist/Tory, compared to 46.7 per cent voting Labour. Although, the Tories’ support in Scotland fell during the 1960s, this is hardly a mark of Scotland’s unique, red-tinged political culture. Labour, under Harold Wilson, was more popular across Britain, not just in Scotland. Still, at the 1964 General Election, the Conservatives still garnered 1,069,695 votes in Scotland, which amounted to 40.6 per cent of the vote. Conservatism in Scotland, far from being anathema, was woven into the political fabric. Which shouldn’t be a surprise: in this regard, Scotland’s political make-up, with the Conservatives and Labour drawing on large social constituencies, was the same as the rest of Britain’s.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite...5#.VU4QmPlViko

The Tories have lost a lot of their credibility in Scotland since Thatcher but they've always actually been able to command a lot of votes still. They still had nearly 450,000 votes at this election and 410,000 in 2010 which wasn't that far off the SNP. And anyway there's a whole host of reasons why people vote for the party they do besides its political outlook: history, family, tradition, locality, electoral prospects etc.

And as for comparisons between Scottish and English political views:

There is a great myth that Scotland is bursting with left-wingers. 45 per cent of its population plumped for independence from England because it is a nicer and more generous country. Scotland’s political views are why it could never elect a right-wing government.

It is certainly a seductive notion. But there is nothing exceptional about Scotland: the political views of the Scots are remarkably similar to those of the English, as the British Social Attitudes Survey makes clear.

Take tuition fees. No policy is seen as a better encapsulation of the differing political climates north and south of the border: while tuition fees were trebled, to £9,000, in England and Wales in 2010, all fees in Scotland were completely scraped in 2008. Yet the countries have almost identical opinions on fees: 67 per cent of English people believe some students should pay, but 64 per cent of Scots do too. While 21 per cent of English people advocate no students paying fees, only 26 per cent of Scots hold the view – a drop of 13 per cent in the last 15 years.

The picture is similar on different issues. While Scots are 9 per cent less likely to want to leave the EU, those in England and Wales are actually more likely to want to increase the EU’s powers or work towards the formation of a single European government than Scots. Majorities in both England and Scotland want to remain in the EU. The discrepancy is no greater on welfare. Voters north of the border are only 7 per cent more likely to favour increasing spending on health, education and social benefits. Scotland might be a little to the left of England – and it is only a little – but the notion that there is an ideological chasm between the two countries is hogwash.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...y-doesnt-exist

Other articles:
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-ma...not-the-tweed/
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2...ty-and-europe/

Your own experiences may contradict that but the idea of a great ideological chasm between liberal, compassionate Scots and self-serving, right-wing little Englanders is a big exaggeration.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think its also to do with geography, history and the fact that the snp have had some very skillfull politicians in the last 25 years.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think its also to do with geography, history and the fact that the snp have had some very skillfull politicians in the last 25 years.

Well there is that. Wales has always seemed quite comfortable cosied in under England's wing, whereas - let's face it - even the Scots who voted "no" in the referendum still tear up a little bit when they hear that Aussie bloke bellow "Freedom!". I think it's genetic. Most "no" voters I've talked to about it say "part of me would have loved it, but I voted with my head not my heart".

Fools! FREEDOOOMMMM

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well there is that. Wales has always seemed quite comfortable cosied in under England's wing, whereas - let's face it - even the Scots who voted "no" in the referendum still tear up a little bit when they hear that Aussie bloke bellow "Freedom!". I think it's genetic. Most "no" voters I've talked to about it say "part of me would have loved it, but I voted with my head not my heart".

Fools! FREEDOOOMMMM

fear won that referendum, it wont with the next one

[arista]

Scotland I can deal with
on Trade.

Wales not the same passion, sadly

[Kizzy]

a jockalypse now That's a good one!

Is the Barnett formula based on GDP?

[Kizzy]

If they aren't different how come their health and education policies are so wildly opposed?
Why are the English are inherently ignorant to keep accepting the fact that the govt charge them for everything now from education to water to uninhabited air in their house!
Of course we're different the Scottish think we're bonkers to keep bailing out banks, war and bombs and I agree!

I recently found out my ancestors were Scottish... And I couldn't be more relieved!

'Sir Leonard Hutton (1916–1990), by unknown photographer, 1947
Hutton, Sir Leonard [Len] (1916–1990), cricketer, was born on 23 June 1916 at 5 Fulneck, near Pudsey, Leeds, the youngest of the six children of Henry Hutton (1876–1947), builder and foreman joiner, and his wife, Lily Swithenbank (1875–1952). Moravians, the earliest protestant sect in Europe, had come to Fulneck in 1732 and within a generation Benjamin Hutton, a tailor from Scotland, had been the first of his family to settle there.'

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If they aren't different how come their health and education policies are so wildly opposed?
Why are the English are inherently ignorant to keep accepting the fact that the govt charge them for everything now from education to water to uninhabited air in their house!
Of course we're different the Scottish think we're bonkers to keep bailing out banks, war and bombs and I agree!

Who's we? Brown bailed out the banks, was he not Scottish? RBS was one the main banks needing bailing out, are they not Scottish? Did the English public support the Iraq war and the Scottish oppose it? Do the English have a different view of Trident than Scotland do? I very much doubt any survey or poll shows they do

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Who's we? Brown bailed out the banks, was he not Scottish? RBS was one the main banks needing bailing out, are they not Scottish? Did the English public support the Iraq war and the Scottish oppose it? Do the English have a different view of Trident than Scotland do? I very much doubt any survey or poll shows they do

He is an individual within an establishment and the bank is an institution, I'm meaning a more general attitudinal mindset nationally.

[user104658]

Who mentioned an ideological chasm? We're not talking about right wing fascism vs full on communism here. Or the Koreas. Or anything so extreme. We're talking subtle social differences that make it likely that the two countries will never properly align politically again. Which is why the union would work perfectly well as devomax or even closely allied and economically tied separate States (which would NOT be the case if there was an ideological chasm) but simply does not and can not work as "one nation".


I'd also be more interested in hearing your own thoughts than a list of quotes and links, MTVN. I don't put a huge a mount of stock in opinion piece articles.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Who mentioned an ideological chasm? We're not talking about right wing fascism vs full on communism here. Or the Koreas. Or anything so extreme. We're talking subtle social differences that make it likely that the two countries will never properly align politically again. Which is why the union would work perfectly well as devomax or even closely allied and economically tied separate States (which would NOT be the case if there was an ideological chasm) but simply does not and can not work as "one nation".


I'd also be more interested in hearing your own thoughts than a list of quotes and links, MTVN. I don't put a huge a mount of stock in opinion piece articles.

Well you did say "if one thing is abundantly clear from the election results, it's that Scottish and English people on the whole have COMPLETELY different political ideologies". That seems to suggest a pretty wide ideological chasm

I was interested to see if that held up so did a quick bit of googling and what I found seemed to contradict it, I could have just translated it into a paragraph of my own writing of course but that seemed unnecessary. They've done the research so I don't have to. They aren't pure opinion pieces, the first one discusses election results and the second discusses the findings of a survey, they're not pulling crap out of thin air. I have always been dubious of claims that the political character of England and Scotland are fundamentally different, even if election results are. Slight differences occur region to region within a country like the UK of course, but I don't believe they fit so easily into an English-Scottish divide. And political leanings are not likely to be static and unchanging, there is no way one set of people could inherently harbour different political attitudes to another simply based on which part of this island they were born on.

I do agree though that increased devolution is a good way to reconcile any differences and remain one country, I do think we will see it in this Parliament as well.

[user104658]

I actually think devolution of England is essential for there to be any sort of empowerment of the people. As someone living in Scotland, I'm relatively sure that if I had a (reasonable) cause I could campaign and in fairly short time be heard - properly heard - by the Scottish government. One voice in five million can realistically speak up and at least get a considered response, and a hundred thousand voices can be significant. One normal voice in 50+ million people just gets completely lost and even larger movements are dwarfed by the scale of government.

In other words, when it comes to the domestic, social, everyday side of running a country, trying to legislate for so many people is practically impossible. The strokes have to be so unreasonably broad that they will never "fit" for more than a handful of people.

I guess to use an allegory, you can't run a successful large company with just upper management and then a million footsoldiers. You need an effective middle management that has the ability, and the power, to make decisions and changes where necessary, and then let the people "at the top" worry about the country-wide and global issues.

I've never really been opposed to devomax in lieu of independence, I just don't believe it'll ever be fully allowed... Though for the life of me I can't figure out exactly what the political elite have against it.

[the truth]

like many things it comes down to the economy and moola
its not anti English its anti tory...the scots seem to think they can get a better deal with Brussels than Westminster
im not sure how much of this is based on the evil thatchers total destruction of industries by setting her own army and police against the workers
but I DO think the scots are more left wing on average than the southern English.
talk to any random scot and he/she will know all about left wing politics and keir hardie and communist countries and left wing revolutions....theyre incredibly politically learned in these areas far moreso dare than the average Welshman and perhaps English man too....clearly this is part of their education and culture

back to wales v scots..
the Barnett formula seems to favour the scots as they get more cash despite being richer than the welsh...despite them being celtic brethrens and bets of mates this will soon be the new battle ground as they wrestle for more support and the welsh want a recalculation of the formula as maybe the English do too

the reality is Scotland is 3 or 4 times the size of wales (ok say 3 because much is uninhabitable) they have a fair bit more resources , they print their own money and have their own laws and a parliament in place....maybe the welsh are just a decade or so behind, although could wales really ever have enough financial clout to go it alone?

many smaller nations have? or are they cosy with England?

if you study how utterly useless miliband was in his Westminster bubble, like Russell brand learning poverty from a book, by demanding a minimum wage of £9 across the uk, that alone shows how out of touch he is with wales and the poorer parts of the uk....half the non skilled workers would lose their jobs at that rate as no bosses could afford to pay it