[Crimson Dynamo]

"When we apply a Nazi comparison to someone or something that does not fit that comparison, then Nazism and the Holocaust lose their power to shock us. And they must never lose that power. If they do, which is quickly happening right now, when something diabolical does come along again in this world, we have no way to identify it, let alone stop it, because we've cried Nazi wolf so often that the comparison has lost its power to persuade."

"he or she that resorts to a Nazi Germany or Hitler comparison loses the argument. "


"You see, for me, a Nazi comparison is a kind of inverted hate speech unwittingly directed at all those who died in the Holocaust. So, if you find Mr. Trump's comments a form of hate speech, it behooves you to not ape their very nature with a grotesquely irresponsible rejoinder. Moreover, when you make preposterous comparisons, you actually draw those on the fence closer to the very person you hope to disempower."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_9334668.html



Excellent article and hopefully a read of it will put an end to the frankly silly and disrespectful comparisons?


Thoughts?

[arista]

Yes LT
I was shocked to see a Mod use this Wrong Term.

Strange Times on TIBB

[Ammi]

..I guess my thoughts are that this should be discussed in the Trump thread..(if there is any necessity for it to be discussed even at all/individual associations in regards to Donald Trump..)...sometimes I think that there is maybe a need to make a separate thread for something, which is touched on during a debate if it is side-tracking too much or merits it's own thread... but not in this vein which seems a sure way of becoming personal and silly/unnecessary to debates which an get personal enough already...would I personally compare Trump..?..no, just because there isn't any need imo, Trump's ideals are worrying enough in their own right/his egotism and everything he stands for are not things that I think represent America's ethos in any way...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes LT
I was shocked to see a Mod use this Wrong Term.

Strange Times on TIBB

I think some more knowledge of military history is needed for some

[Jamie89]

So the suggestion is that if Person A makes a generic comparison between Hitler and someone else (regardless of what aspects of the two people are being compared), then Person B will no longer be shocked by Nazism or the Holocaust? I disagree. If a comparison can be made then why not make it? It's not disrespectful to anyone other than the person who is being compared to Hitler. And it depends what the comparison is. If someone was to say 'Trump did x and that was as bad as the Holocaust', then obviously that would be incredibly disrespectful, but if it's a comparison of a particular policy/personality trait (I don't know exactly what the comparison is that has led to this thread) and the comparison exists legitimately, or there is an argument to be had for it, then I think it's fine. Calling it 'Hate Speech' is a bit much to be honest
I remember when I was at school we had a teacher that everyone called 'Little Hitler'. It wasn't a comment on Nazism, it was just a silly meaningless insult aimed at the teacher for being a ****.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

So the suggestion is that if Person A makes a generic comparison between Hitler and someone else (regardless of what aspects of the two people are being compared), then Person B will no longer be shocked by Nazism or the Holocaust? I disagree. If a comparison can be made then why not make it? It's not disrespectful to anyone other than the person who is being compared to Hitler. And it depends what the comparison is. If someone was to say 'Trump did x and that was as bad as the Holocaust', then obviously that would be incredibly disrespectful, but if it's a comparison of a particular policy/personality trait (I don't know exactly what the comparison is that has led to this thread) and the comparison exists legitimately, or there is an argument to be had for it, then I think it's fine. Calling it 'Hate Speech' is a bit much to be honest
I remember when I was at school we had a teacher that everyone called 'Little Hitler'. It wasn't a comment on Nazism, it was just a silly meaningless insult aimed at the teacher for being a ****.

Absolutely,I personally would avoid comparing someone to Hitler and the Nazis but at times some real sensationalism can enter into debate as comparing one with another.
Which can work in positive and negative ways, one it gets a debate going but also can help highlight the wrongs of someone trying to be too unacceptably extreme and also really discriminating as to others, especially when such a person is trying to seek office of a high order.
This is how some of the World saw Adolf Hitler before he came to power.

I hate much of the tone of Trump,I just really hope the American people wake up to him fast and if he does unfortunately get the nomination of the Republican party that he gets soundly and massively trounced in the actual Presidential election.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

So the suggestion is that if Person A makes a generic comparison between Hitler and someone else (regardless of what aspects of the two people are being compared), then Person B will no longer be shocked by Nazism or the Holocaust? I disagree. If a comparison can be made then why not make it? It's not disrespectful to anyone other than the person who is being compared to Hitler. And it depends what the comparison is. If someone was to say 'Trump did x and that was as bad as the Holocaust', then obviously that would be incredibly disrespectful, but if it's a comparison of a particular policy/personality trait (I don't know exactly what the comparison is that has led to this thread) and the comparison exists legitimately, or there is an argument to be had for it, then I think it's fine. Calling it 'Hate Speech' is a bit much to be honest
I remember when I was at school we had a teacher that everyone called 'Little Hitler'. It wasn't a comment on Nazism, it was just a silly meaningless insult aimed at the teacher for being a ****.

The reason there is Godwins Law et is that its lazy and 99.9% inaccurate

all you are doing is thinking of the worst extreme to try and prove a point (usually that you dont like something)

[Crimson Dynamo]

In December 2015, Godwin cited several articles on Republican presidential candidate Donald J. Trump for their Nazi and Fascist comparisons.


Even Godwin himself is calling out those who make the Trump comparison


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

In December 2015, Godwin cited several articles on Republican presidential candidate Donald J. Trump for their Nazi and Fascist comparisons.


Even Godwin himself is calling out those who make the Trump comparison


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Interesting link, I think this part is particularly relevant:

"Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."

If somebody feels that making a comparison is relevant during a discussion, then they have the right to make that comparison. Trying to censor them because you disagree with it isn't helpful to the discussion at all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Interesting link, I think this part is particularly relevant:

"Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."

If somebody feels that making a comparison is relevant during a discussion, then they have the right to make that comparison. Trying to censor them because you disagree with it isn't helpful to the discussion at all.

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps

That point would only be valid if there was no merit to the comparisons. If people believe there are valid reasons behind making a comparison then they have the right to make that point. If on the other hand I decide to start comparing Trump to Pingu then that would lower the level of the thread because I can't back up why it would be relevant.
The whole point in this thread is to censor the Hitler comparisons, not because there aren't reasons behind them, but because you don't agree with the validity of the reasons, which is a simple difference of opinion, so saying that you're not trying to censor people is a contradiction.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

That point would only be valid if there was no merit to the comparisons. If people believe there are valid reasons behind making a comparison then they have the right to make that point. If on the other hand I decide to start comparing Trump to Pingu then that would lower the level of the thread because I can't back up why it would be relevant.
The whole point in this thread is to censor the Hitler comparisons, not because there aren't reasons behind them, but because you don't agree with the validity of the reasons, which is a simple difference of opinion, so saying that you're not trying to censor people is a contradiction.

I cant censor anyone but i can perhaps make them re-evaluate the comparison as it is rather ridiculous

naturally I had hoped someone may have said "yes perhaps i have been a bit hasty"

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps

I'm going to be honest LT... I think using Godwin's law as censorship is exactly what you're attempting to do.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm going to be honest LT... I think using Godwin's law as censorship is exactly what you're attempting to do.

Just making people aware is not censorship

if I were a mod and i shut the Trump thread then yes

[Beso]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps

trumps like Hitler in the ball department.

[kirklancaster]

Why is there a propensity among certain members on here to always 'shoot the messenger' just because the message does not fit in with their own skewed and ILLOGICAL ideologies?

Comparing Trump to Hitler is odious, and says more about the inner prejudice of those making the comparison than it does about any prejudice Trump stands accused of purely because he speaks the TRUTH about SOME immigrants.

(Some of us on here suffer the same irrational and unfair attacks for speaking that same truth)

So Trump is 'Stupid', 'Trump is like Hitler', 'Trump is 'prejudiced'?

So to examine that truth, let's see how Hitler and Trump REALLY compare:

Hitler was a physical non-descript who suffered from a massive inferiority complex due to his poor background and Father's illegitimacy.
Trump was a "Star Athlete" in his 'college years', and certainly does not suffer from any inferiority complex.

Hitler had merely a 'comfortable' working class early home life.
Trump enjoyed a privileged childhood.

Hitler was a failure who cowardly 'stopped trying' at school because he could not compete against other bright students. He left school with no qualifications having failed his exams.
Trump was a “star pupil” and graduated from, both the New York Military Academy in 1964, and 'Wharton School of Finance at the University of Pennsylvania 4 years later where he gained a degree in Economics.

(Trump stupid? Don't make me laugh.)

Hitler dreamed of being a famous artist but was again a failure when he was rejected by the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts.
Trump is a multi-billionaire who has been successful and maintained his wealth throughout his life, overcoming the reverses which all ambitious people inevitably encounter.

Hitler - an abject failure and misfit - became a "bum" and "drifter" prior to 'finding' politics.
Trump - a 'winner' in anyone's language - is a multi-billionaire who has been successful and maintained his wealth throughout his life, overcoming the reverses which all ambitious people inevitably encounter.

Hitler illogically and wrongly blamed the ENTIRE Jewish race for ALL Germany's and the world's ills – from causing the Russian Revolution to being solely responsible for the collapse of the German Economy.
Trump is NOT blaming ALL immigrants for America's problems but RIGHTLY pointing out that ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and even THE UNSUSTAINABLE HIGH LEVELS of LEGAL immigration, contribute to its problems - including its massive out of control drugs problems and the growing threat to its security from covert immigrant terrorists.

Hitler scapegoated millions of completely innocent Jews and perpetrated the most heinous, inhuman catalogue of degradation against them culminating in his 'Final Solution' - still the most incredible and sickening evil event in recent history.
Trump is NOT proposing one act of violence against ANYONE.

Hitler - little inadequate toerag that he was - had that insane 'corporate jealousy' known by psychologists as 'Othello Syndrome' - named after Shakespeare's insanely jealous Moor - where one's actions are dictated by a deep seated jealousy resulting from the success of others. He resented the business acumen and success of the Jews who owned half of all German private banks, 'dominated' the stock exchange, controlled half of the nation’s newspapers, and over 80% of Retail Businesses.

Their success only highlighted pathetic-little man Hitler's own total failures and inadequacies, and he conveniently 'forgot' when it came to scapegoating them, that although these remarkable people were indeed Jews, they were - unlike him - also GERMANS.
Trump has NO corporate jealousy and does NOT suffer from 'Othello Syndrome'.
Trump is HUGELY successful in his own right.
Trump LOVES, RESPECTS and WELCOMES successful people - no matter what race, colour, or creed. These entrepeneurial people ALL worship at the same altar of commercialism that he does, and Trump recognises the need for such wealth makers.

Unlike turd Hitler, Trump is not 'grinding' any 'personal axe' when he voices concerns about unfettered legal immigration or unchecked illegal immigration, or the high percentage of criminals, benefit seekers, or subversives among such immigrants.

He is SPEAKING THE TRUTH - a truth corroborated by the FACTS and FIGURES.

Dislike trump all you want. Hate him all you want. But to try to liken him to Hitler and to label him 'stupid' speaks more about your own stupidity and prejudice - in my (always very unpopular) opinion.

As a footnote - and also in my (always very unpopular) opinion; to trivialise a despicable, evil bastard like the psychotic Hitler in such a willy-nilly manner to aid in lambasting people we do not like - also demeans, disrespects, and trivialises the 6 million innocent victims of the Austrian ******'s evil.

[user104658]

I don't know. I'm the first to agree with Godwin's Law when it comes to people pulling the Nazi card, and if anyone starts saying that Trump is "just like" Hitler or is going to successfully form a new Nazi regime, then yes, Godwin's all the way.

However...

There are some clear, obvious and demonstrable comparisons that can be made between Trump's popularity and the rise of Hitler. Anyone who bleats "blrrrr Godwin's law lolol" whilst refusing to acknowledge or address those in any way, is just as bad as someone Barking "Nazi!".

There are similar economic and political trends at work that are being leveraged in similar ways, using similar rhetoric, for a similar surge in political popularity that would not have been possible under other circumstances. That's just a fact.

There are comparisons to be drawn. Comparing does not necessarily mean equating. Shooting down those comparisons in a kneejerk fashion, "OMG you said Hitler lololllll Godwin lol get out" is disingenuous.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know. I'm the first to agree with Godwin's Law when it comes to people pulling the Nazi card, and if anyone starts saying that Trump is "just like" Hitler or is going to successfully form a new Nazi regime, then yes, Godwin's all the way.

However...

There are some clear, obvious and demonstrable comparisons that can be made between Trump's popularity and the rise of Hitler. Anyone who bleats "blrrrr Godwin's law lolol" whilst refusing to acknowledge or address those in any way, is just as bad as someone Barking "Nazi!".

There are similar economic and political trends at work that are being leveraged in similar ways, using similar rhetoric, for a similar surge in political popularity that would not have been possible under other circumstances. That's just a fact.

There are comparisons to be drawn. Comparing does not necessarily mean equating. Shooting down those comparisons in a kneejerk fashion, "OMG you said Hitler lololllll Godwin lol get out" is disingenuous.

i seem to remember that Farage for this and no doubt in French forums Le Pen gets this all the time, in fact I doubt that there has been any right wing popular politician who has not been compared to Hitler, ever

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i seem to remember that Farage for this and no doubt in French forums Le Pen gets this all the time, in fact I doubt that there has been any right wing popular politician who has not been compared to Hitler, ever

Well surely they can be. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "comparison" to be honest, like I said, with people believing that "compare" and "equate" mean the same when they don't. "There's no comparison!!1!!1"... Well... Of course there is. I could write a lengthy post comparing Hitler to a banana sundae, if the mood were to strike. Or anything else. There may be no similarity at all... That would be a part of the comparison?

So yes, compare any right wing politician to a facist dictator and you will inevitably find similarities to highlight. That's inevitable. Just as it's inevitable that you will be able to find similarities between left wing politicians and hard socialism / communism / Marxism. The Tories for example absolutely love to do just that?

So, it is in fact perfectly valid to compare Trump with Hitler. There's no inherent problem with it, if it's just part of the conversation and explained. There ARE similarities in the reasons that they rose to popularity, there ARE similarities in their rhetoric. Should it be off limits to say so just because of the wider implications? In my opinion, no, but I guess it depends on your audience and your intent. Pointing these things out is not the same as saying "Trump = Hitler! Trump is a Nazi!"

IMO Godwin's law comes into play, then, when "Nazi" or "Hitler" is used as the descriptor itself without further examination or elaboration. When the entire argument is "X is a Nazi", "Y is Nazi propaganda" etc.

There's no inherent problem with comparison.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well surely they can be. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "comparison" to be honest, like I said, with people believing that "compare" and "equate" mean the same when they don't. "There's no comparison!!1!!1"... Well... Of course there is. I could write a lengthy post comparing Hitler to a banana sundae, if the mood were to strike. Or anything else. There may be no similarity at all... That would be a part of the comparison?

So yes, compare any right wing politician to a facist dictator and you will inevitably find similarities to highlight. That's inevitable. Just as it's inevitable that you will be able to find similarities between left wing politicians and hard socialism / communism / Marxism. The Tories for example absolutely love to do just that?

So, it is in fact perfectly valid to compare Trump with Hitler. There's no inherent problem with it, if it's just part of the conversation and explained. There ARE similarities in the reasons that they rose to popularity, there ARE similarities in their rhetoric. Should it be off limits to say so just because of the wider implications? In my opinion, no, but I guess it depends on your audience and your intent. Pointing these things out is not the same as saying "Trump = Hitler! Trump is a Nazi!"

IMO Godwin's law comes into play, then, when "Nazi" or "Hitler" is used as the descriptor itself without further examination or elaboration. When the entire argument is "X is a Nazi", "Y is Nazi propaganda" etc.

There's no inherent problem with comparison.

Godwin invented his law to make people try and think a little deeper and avoid the obvious just because you dont like something

Hopefully today maybe people have

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Godwin invented his law to make people try and think a little deeper and avoid the obvious just because you dont like something

Hopefully today maybe people have

He sure did. He didn't invent the law to block anyone from ever drawing any parallels with Hitler or the Nazis in any circumstance. That would be ridiculous.

[arista]

"Trump's ideals are worrying enough in their own right/his egotism"


Ammi
not for those backing President Trump

[Z]

I can see the comparisons of rousing popular support from a disgruntled population but that's about where it ends - Donald Trump's campaign is built upon his celebrity and outspoken take no prisoners attitude, the type of man who will not back down from an idea once he's expressed it. He has a like it or lump it, marmite type of public persona - some people love his unfiltered attitude, others find him deplorable. He was a bit of a novelty before he entered the Presidential nomination race and now people are retrospectively trying to add all these horrible attributes to him that they wouldn't have before, they're just trying to discredit him. I don't think he will be elected the next President of the United States but that's neither here nor there.

Adolf Hitler began his political career by blaming Jews for the ills of society, yes, but he then worked his way up to leading the country through actual policies that people could vote for, his actual leadership skills are quietly applauded by anybody who can look past the obvious glaring atrocities his leadership were responsible for and while he led his nation into a war it couldn't win and war crimes that will always have an infamous legacy in German politics, the combination of factors that led him to that point would be significantly harder to repeat today in a world filled with unions and members only organisations that constrain the Western world from repeating the horrors of the past. That's not to say that horrific human rights situations can't or don't happen (they have continued to happen on a regular basis since World War II, after all) but a rampant xenophobe won't be able to commit Hitler-esque atrocities. Do people really think Donald Trump is going to open up gulags and start purging anyone brown from American soil, or do they just see an idiot and cry extremist? It's a bit of a disservice to Adolf Hitler to compare Donald Trump to him; Hitler knew exactly what he was doing and was a very measured, considered man. Donald Trump is none of those things.






I can't believe I just defended Adolf Hitler.

[Shaun]

Yeah I'd identify Trump as more of a cult leader than a fascist... his personality/wealth/ubiquitous media presence is just snowballing votes from people that are happy to fix the blame of everything that's wrong with America right now on external factors. Without thinking about it too much. Because y'know, Murrica.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Yeah I'd identify Trump as more of a cult leader than a fascist... his personality/wealth/ubiquitous media presence is just snowballing votes from people that are happy to fix the blame of everything that's wrong with America right now on external factors. Without thinking about it too much. Because y'know, Murrica.

Good Points Shaun