[jaxie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-drugs.html

This story popped up in my Google news feed this morning and I wondered what people thought about children under 16, sometimes under 10 being given puberty halting and gender change hormones. On checking out the story I found a report on the same child from 2015 so he/she is already undergoing treatment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7933741.html

I also found this story about a boy who changed his mind. In my view a child is too young to decide to have this life changing therapy and doctors seem to be giving it out like candy. How can you be sure at 9 what sex you really want to be, most children because they are children are to a degree gender neutral without the drives and life creating elements that are part of gender, until the hormones kick in at puberty anyway so how can you know you don't want to be a man until you have any experience of it.

What do others think on this issue?

[Kizzy]

It's hard to imagine how you would feel tbf, if doctors are taking these children seriously after several years of consultation think delaying puberty is warranted instead of dismissing the child and risking them reacting badly to their changes and committing suicide then that is obviously the preferred option.

[jaxie]

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

Excellent point Cherie. I wanted to be princess but no one sent me to the palace to meet any princes.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Excellent point Cherie. I wanted to be princess but no one sent me to the palace to meet any princes.

Utterly ridiculous post. You were never a princess trapped in a common persons body. Its tragic that you believe this comparison is good enough to dismiss a drug that will bring comfort to several thousands.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Utterly ridiculous post. You were never a princess trapped in a common persons body. Its tragic that you believe this comparison is good enough to dismiss a drug that will bring comfort to several thousands.

Can I just ask, do you take everything I say literally?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

As if it's assumed that parents walk into a surgery and walk out with this medication, don't you thing there are behavioral and cognitive therapies explored first?

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...s-survey-finds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-identity.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn...b_8564834.html

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/ab...J-05-2014-0015

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As if it's assumed that parents walk into a surgery and walk out with this medication, don't you thing there are behavioral and cognitive therapies explored first?

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...s-survey-finds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-identity.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn...b_8564834.html

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/ab...J-05-2014-0015

and you are assuming that there is endless funding for behavioural and congnitive therapies, try asking the parent of a child with behavioural difficulties or congnitive delay in this day and age how difficult it is to get assessed never mind a diagnosis or help in mainstream school

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

Totally 100%.Said it better than i was thinking.

Alot of kids may find that when they hit puberty these thoughts go.Atleast give them a chance to develop properly into adults and then they can decide for themselves.
Doctors shouldn’t be entertaining the idea of messing with kids hormones like this.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

There have been some murderous everyone... teachers, plumbers, social workers, police officers. You can't write off medical opinion and current practice and guidelines because of that :/

Who said there were 'masses' but it happens, if one suicide can be prevented by delaying puberty then for me it's worth it. Should the child then reconsider then they simply come off the medication and enter puberty.

[Tom4784]

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.

Originally Posted by jaxie

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

What a silly line of reasoning to discount medical advice on, like Kizzy said, you could say that to ignore pretty much every professional opinion of any field.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.

Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

Hugh litigation?

Spoiler:

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-drugs.html

This story popped up in my Google news feed this morning and I wondered what people thought about children under 16, sometimes under 10 being given puberty halting and gender change hormones. On checking out the story I found a report on the same child from 2015 so he/she is already undergoing treatment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7933741.html

I also found this story about a boy who changed his mind. In my view a child is too young to decide to have this life changing therapy and doctors seem to be giving it out like candy. How can you be sure at 9 what sex you really want to be, most children because they are children are to a degree gender neutral without the drives and life creating elements that are part of gender, until the hormones kick in at puberty anyway so how can you know you don't want to be a man until you have any experience of it.

What do others think on this issue?

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

I don't think it's a case of 'wanting' it's that they think they already are a male or female trapped in the wrong body.
I don't know what that's like or how these children feel but most transsexuals say that they always knew even as children, so I don't think going through puberty is a factor in that. Transsexualism isn't about sexual desire so why is going through puberty a necessity in being able to make the decision?
I don't know what the right answer is though and I'm not totally comfortable with the idea of gender-changing hormones, but like I say I don't understand the feelings of it as noone who hasn't gone through it can, but like Kizzy said the people who are best to judge that are the doctors/psychologists who have a better understanding of it and analysis of the specific children in question, so I'm inclined to trust their judgement (I don't think that the fact that some doctors have turned out to be murderers etc should mean they shouldn't be trusted full stop).
The rate of suicide among trans people is shocking and I don't think discomfort/inability to truly understand justifies putting these children at risk. It's weighing up the risk that they might change their mind (I'd be interested to know the rate of this) against putting their lives at risk by denying treatment. With regards to the drugs that delay puberty, they aren't actually being given a sex change, and it allows them time to change their mind, and it makes the process of having a sex change if that's what they end up deciding much easier, so maybe that is the most sensible option.

[Jamie89]

Also just to add that I disagree that it causes more confusion in young minds. The confusion already exists in the children that this affects and surely that needs addressing. The previous approach of ignoring it hasn't worked and is one of the reasons for such a high suicide rate in my opinion.. For children who aren't affected I don't think it's realistic that they now will be as a result of this.

[Withano]

Puberty-halting pills sound like an excellent idea, there would be very little damage to those who do change their mind, and very little damage to those who do not

[jaxie]

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

I think we also need to remember the reasons why they are doing it as well though, the risk of suicide being the greatest. And also to put in perspective that delaying puberty is just that, it isn't causing any permanent alterations but giving them time which surely is a good thing. All medical treatments go against the nature of our bodies but they exist because they have a purpose and a benefit.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I think we also need to remember the reasons why they are doing it as well though, the risk of suicide being the greatest. And also to put in perspective that delaying puberty is just that, it isn't causing any permanent alterations but giving them time which surely is a good thing. All medical treatments go against the nature of our bodies but they exist because they have a purpose and a benefit.

In theory maybe, but in practice it doesn't happen like that.

This is the only study done on this to date, so all we can really go on

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im...e-child-abuse/

Most, if not all, children on puberty blockers go on to take cross-sex hormones. The only study to date to have followed pre-pubertal children who were socially affirmed and placed on blockers at a young age found that 100 percent of them claimed a transgender identity and chose cross-sex hormones.

This suggests that the medical protocol itself may lead children to identify as transgender.

There is an obvious self-fulfilling effect in helping children impersonate the opposite sex both biologically and socially. This is far from benign, since taking puberty blockers at age 12 or younger, followed by cross-sex hormones, sterilizes a child.

The study, if you fancy reading it

http://www.pinktherapy.com/portals/0...ts_with_GD.pdf

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

Exactly

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think half the time the parents need to be looked at more

[Niamh.]

Totally disagree with this, in fact I'd consider it child abuse

[Withano]

Agreed. Anyway.

Imagine having a kid, who aged 5, knew they were the opposite sex, and any person as a parent denied them this drug because 'they were a child'... and that kid still wanted to be the opposite sex 10 years later, the parent has undoubtedly ruined their life. There would be so much irreversable damage at that point - and for what? Because they were a child, a cant possibly know their gender?

This drug should be the alternative to the parents who are cautious about the rare possibility of a child changing their mind - it wouldnt stop the process, it would slow the process. To deny a girl to stop turning into a boy because they are a child and might be confused, is disturbing.

I think there are a lot of old fashioned views already in this thread, and theres gonna be more to come, but I'm so happy we're living in a world where this drug has been developed to stop children from effectively being forced into living a lie.