[Oliver_W]

Martin Scorsese, one of cinema’s most venerated current directors, has decried superhero movies – the dominant force in today’s industry. The director of films such as Taxi Driver, Raging Bull and Goodfellas told Empire magazine that his attempts to get up to speed with contemporary superhero films had failed.

“I tried, you know?” the director said when asked if he had seen Marvel’s movies. “But that’s not cinema.”

He continued: “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”

Earlier this year, Avengers: Endgame became the highest grossing film in history after topping $2.8bn at the global box office (fifth highest after adjusting for inflation). Eight other titles from the same studio feature in the Top 30 (when factored without inflation).

Marvel head Kevin Feige last year defended his films against the kind of criticism levelled by Scorsese, saying that the series’s lack of major awards was no indication of a lack of quality or ambition.

“Maybe it’s easy to dismiss VFX or flying people or spaceships or billion dollar grosses,” Feige said. “I think it is easy to say that you have already been awarded in a certain way. [Alfred] Hitchcock never won best director, so it’s very nice, but it doesn’t mean everything. I would much rather be in a room full of engaged fans.”

Scorsese’s latest film, The Irishman, won rave reviews from its premiere at the New York film festival last weekend, with critics praising the use of “de-ageing” technology.

Hmm. I'd say he's not entirely wrong - while I think the MCU as a whole will go "down in the books" as the first successfully executed cinematic universe, I don't think any of the movies are earth-shattering in their own right, out of the MCU context. Like sure, Infinity War + Endgame successfully tied up about a million threads and brought the current incarnation of the MCU to a close, but I can't imagine watching it without having seen the previous films!

I'd say a better comparison than themeparks might be comparing cinema as a whole to food; MCU and (most) other superhero movies are McDonalds - enjoyed by most people, tasty enough, but ultimately disposable and lacking substance.

And I'm saying all this as someone who really enjoys most superhero movies!

[Niamh.]

What is his definition of "cinema" though. In my mind "cinema" is exactly these kinds of movies, ones that you don't want to watch at home because the action needs to be on a big screen etc They're entertainment pure and simple. Superhero movies are never going to really be that deep or earth shattering but so what, you need a balance aswell

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What is his definition of "cinema" though. In my mind "cinema" is exactly these kinds of movies, ones that you don't want to watch at home because the action needs to be on a big screen etc They're entertainment pure and simple. Superhero movies are never going to really be that deep or earth shattering but so what, you need a balance aswell

I agree with all of this tbh. I'd say Scorsese maybe should have used a different word, but I'm not even sure what that word could be! Movies? Well obviously they are literal movies, because they're moving pictures. hmmmm

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I agree with all of this tbh. I'd say Scorsese maybe should have used a different word, but I'm not even sure what that word could be! Movies? Well obviously they are literal movies, because they're moving pictures. hmmmm

Yeah, I mean, from reading the interview, he could just have said, I don't really like Marvel movies

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What is his definition of "cinema" though. In my mind "cinema" is exactly these kinds of movies, ones that you don't want to watch at home because the action needs to be on a big screen etc They're entertainment pure and simple. Superhero movies are never going to really be that deep or earth shattering but so what, you need a balance aswell

This.

I cannot stand half the superhero type movies, and have not seen many marvel stuff (unless gavin has it on and am half watching) but of course they are cinema..hell, possibly moreso than some Scorsese films!

I agree he could have just told the truth and said..I don't like Marvel movis, instead of this nonsense

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What is his definition of "cinema" though. In my mind "cinema" is exactly these kinds of movies, ones that you don't want to watch at home because the action needs to be on a big screen etc They're entertainment pure and simple. Superhero movies are never going to really be that deep or earth shattering but so what, you need a balance aswell

This really.

There's a room for all types of Movies imo, apart from the deceptive ones that lie about what they are.

[James]

I'm not the biggest fan of the MCU films, but there's a few I like quite a lot. I find with a lot of blockbusters in the 2010s, including many from the MCU, they don't have a story that works from beginning to end like the best films.

They are a lot like theme park rides but I would say that they are still cinema - big spectacle has always a reason people like films - films don't need to say anything about humanity.

One of the earliest ever films was of a steam train arriving at a station, and apparently people lost their minds at that.

[Alf]

Well he's got a point.

A great film should give you a feeling in your heart or your stomach. It should give you an emotional feeling of wow. It should speak to you. It should make you come away from the viewing asking questions of it and be in your mind for the rest of the day and days to come.

[Oliver_W]

He could easily have come off as "old man yells at cloud", but he's Martin Fucking Scorsese. He looked at Leonardo DiCaprio and thought "I'm gonna turn him into a legitimate actor" ... and he succeeded!

Cinema itself is pretty stagnant at the moment tbh. Like, all horror is these days is "quiet scene, then we're made jump". I enjoyed both IT movies but the recent one had about four instances of "benign person or object suddenly gets huge and runs at character"

All we get from the mainstream these days is franchise movies, remakes, and cheap horror

tbh I'd be happy for Hollywood to burn to the ground, leaving only Big Name Directors like Scorsese, Speilberg, etc, and leave the rest to indie directors.

Okay, I'm under 30 but I'm the old man yelling at clouds

[Tom4784]

Gatekeeping prick.

Cinema is cinema, his pretentious three+ hour oscar bait is cinema, Marvel films are cinema, even **** like Adam Sandler's filmography is cinema.

If this was a few years ago when Marvel was in a creative rut with the films and every one (Bar the Captain America sequels) felt like it was made from the same blueprint then he might have had a point but I think Black Panther in particular has inspired Marvel to do more, it's only Captain Marvel that's been underwhelming recently.

[Alf]

Scorsese's work will be sought after in a century's time. This super hero fad more than likely won't be.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

Scorsese's work will be sought after in a century's time. This super hero fad more than likely won't be.

Can you really call something a fad when it's been going since the late 1990's? The craze started with X-Men and Sam Raimi's Spiderman films after all and then you had Nolan's Batman films that really elevated everything and now you've got the likes of Black Panther and inevitably Joker (which, ironically, Scorsese was attached to for a very long time) that are and will make waves at the oscars.

I don't think super hero films will ever die down now, the comics never have and the films are an evolution of that. Disney and Marvel have created a machine that can keep going and going now.

Scorsese's comments aren't much different to the old guard's disdain for Netflix and the like, Scorsese nor his counterparts can get with the times.

[Cherie]

I agree with him in that some of these movies are not standalone classics so you have to watch 5 or 6 movies to get the full drift

[Alf]

I don't think future film makers will be studying and taking inspiration from these Marvel films as much as they will be studying Scorsese. They're just really a quick fix, where what Scorsese does is greatness in the art of moving pictures.

Most people can draw a picture, but not everybody is Da Vinci or Rembrandt.

Scorsese has earned the right to criticise in this subject, I'd think he has a good idea what he's talking about.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

I don't think future film makers will be studying and taking inspiration from these Marvel films as much as they will be studying Scorsese. They're just really a quick fix, where what Scorsese does is greatness in the art of moving pictures.

Most people can draw a picture, but not everybody is Da Vinci or Rembrandt.

Scorsese has earned the right to criticise in this subject, I'd think he has a good idea what he's talking about.

Everyone has the right to criticise but his standing doesn't mean his opinion is beyond reproach.

I also think that Marvel films could end up being studied because, after all, they are technical feats and Thanos alone will probably be a benchmark for people learning about CGI in cinema. The social relevance of Black Panther could also lead to it being a film that's highly valued down the line, especially from a historic point of view.

His criticisms of Marvel films are not much different then the criticisms he got when he was a young director in the 'brat pack'. Every generation is bemoaned by the one that came before it.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The social relevance of Black Panther could also lead to it being a film that's highly valued down the line, especially from a historic point of view.

Not to be "that guy", but what social relevance? There have been black superhero movies for decades tbh

[Tony Montana]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Not to be "that guy", but what social relevance? There have been black superhero movies for decades tbh

It was the first comic book film to have a predominantly black cast.

Apart from the Blade films, what other black superhero films have there been?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

It was the first comic book film to have a predominantly black cast.

Apart from the Blade films, what other black superhero films have there been?

Only one I can think of is hancock..if hes meant to be a superhero

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

It was the first comic book film to have a predominantly black cast.

Apart from the Blade films, what other black superhero films have there been?

I can't remember its name but there was the one where the teacher got hit by a meteor which gave him powers, and Blankman. They both had a mostly black cast (if I remember right, I've only seen each once).

Spawn? Who's that guy that looks like Venom?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Not to be "that guy", but what social relevance? There have been black superhero movies for decades tbh

And most of them are blaxpoitation films or films that take inspiration from that era. What makes Black Panther so innovative was the fact that it didn't rely on the blaxploitation angle and it was a film that embraced culture and spoke of issues in a way that's never been handled in a mainstream superhero film before. It's difficult to explain but, in the US in particular, it's a very important film because it bucked a lot of trends that people used to devalue black actors and films with minority casts. Go back even a few years ago and most studios would have never gone for a big budget Blockbuster without a white actor on the poster because they wouldn't believe it to be profitable.

Black Panther showed that you could tell a successful authentic story featuring black characters and culture that didn't rely on stereotypes or belittlement. Black Panther's critical, financial success along with the adoration of the audience, when you consider all the factors, was unheard of. If the MCU ever does come to an end, Black Panther will likely be one of the films that will remain relevant and beloved.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And most of them are blaxpoitation films or films that take inspiration from that era. What makes Black Panther so innovative was the fact that it didn't rely on the blaxploitation angle and it was a film that embraced culture and spoke of issues in a way that's never been handled in a mainstream superhero film before. It's difficult to explain but, in the US in particular, it's a very important film because it bucked a lot of trends that people used to devalue black actors and films with minority casts.

Okay, I'd never thought of it like that before

[Alf]

And to be fair to Scorsese, it's very rare you see him criticising films, in fact I can't recall him doing so before, he's usually very positive and enthusiastic when he's talking about cinema, and he's a huge fan of it. So something's got up his nose.

[Alf]

I should probably stop defending him anyway. You never know what's gonna come out in the future with these Hollywood types.

[arista]

Clockwork Orange
a Great Cinema film.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by arista

Clockwork Orange
a Great Cinema film.

it most certainly is. Kubrick is a God