[LeatherTrumpet]

?

is this at the crux of their staggering decline?

[arista]

Well they want you to follow their views?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by arista

Well they want you to follow their views?

but is it that their views are just unrealistic?

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

but is it that their views are just unrealistic?

Yes hence the Terrible Local Elections in England for Labour
Starmer is not connecting.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes hence the Terrible Local Elections in England for Labour

Starmer is not connecting.

In my humble opinion, Starmer ‘looked’ potentially good for about the first 2 weeks of his ‘reign’ and I was rather optimistic about the political scene .. then he very rapidly just became a complete joke early last year .

Initially he was backing the government in everything - as they fought against Covid began promising that the political parties would all fight as one against the pandemic... that lasted a few weeks and then he started jumping on any passing bandwagon that found any kind of fault with the Tory strategies.

Now he’s almost a caricature of his former , poll winning self ... he’s actually not even worth listening to now .


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[bitontheslide]

Starmer's face in that video yesterday was very weird, i wasn't sure whether he was really angry or was about to cry. It certainly wasn't the face of someone in control

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Zizu

In my humble opinion, Starmer ‘looked’ potentially good for about the first 2 weeks of his ‘reign’ and I was rather optimistic about the political scene .. then he very rapidly just became a complete joke early last year .

Initially he was backing the government in everything - as they fought against Covid began promising that the political parties would all fight as one against the pandemic... that lasted a few weeks and then he started jumping on any passing bandwagon that found any kind of fault with the Tory strategies.

Now he’s almost a caricature of his former , poll winning self ... he’s actually not even worth listening to now .


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I've never liked starmer, but you liked him when he was blindly following the tories, but when he wasn't 100% supportive of their corruption and murder, you stopped liking him?

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Zizu

In my humble opinion, Starmer ‘looked’ potentially good for about the first 2 weeks of his ‘reign’ and I was rather optimistic about the political scene .. then he very rapidly just became a complete joke early last year .

Initially he was backing the government in everything - as they fought against Covid began promising that the political parties would all fight as one against the pandemic... that lasted a few weeks and then he started jumping on any passing bandwagon that found any kind of fault with the Tory strategies.

Now he’s almost a caricature of his former , poll winning self ... he’s actually not even worth listening to now .


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Yes you are spot on there...

[Toy Soldier]

“Does labour like Britain as it stands after a decade of Tory government”

.... well no probably not, otherwise they would not exist? that’s sort of how democracy works isn’t it.

They aren’t currently electable though, they’ve become a mess of identity politics because they (mistakenly) believe there’s more voting power there than there is. They’ve made the classic mistake of confusing “loudness” with actual numbers and have thus alienated the core voter base.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

“Does labour like Britain as it stands after a decade of Tory government”

.... well no probably not, otherwise they would not exist? that’s sort of how democracy works isn’t it.

They aren’t currently electable though, they’ve become a mess of identity politics because they (mistakenly) believe there’s more voting power there than there is. They’ve made the classic mistake of confusing “loudness” with actual numbers and have thus alienated the core voter base.

That's a fair and balanced response, pretty much crystalised my views

The core voter base is (of course) against things like racism and homophobia by and large, but that doesn't translate to "fling open the borders" and "allow males into women's spaces and sports".

Which isn't all Labour talk about, but as you say the louder voices are heard most, and it allows the mainstream media to paint a caricature.

[The Slim Reaper]

I think the question is completely disingenuous when the dominant party votes against feeding poor children, uses the pandemic to transfer our taxes to their mates, and with a pm who said "let the bodies pile high." Just like society, we have posters that cheer them on through all this.

There are machinations that have been taking place within labour for years, with the right of the party openly working against the left. All of this has been laid out within their internal reports but Starmer has refused to release them.

It's not about echo chambers, and believing they are listening to twitter, which just doesn't add up to anything for one simple reason, twitter is probably more openly left wing (when it comes to labour representation), but absolutely nothing about Starmers leadership has been lw. The left has been purged completely from labour, which is a weird way to surrender your party to the loudest, "woke" mob.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The left has been purged completely from labour, which is a weird way to surrender your party to the loudest, "woke" mob.

This is largely correct but it's left behind a husk and not much more; a barebones collection of people without a core ideology lurching between New Labour and Corbynism instead of wiping the table and refocussing on the core issues that centre-left voters are actually concerned with, areas that are being failed in massively by the Tories as you've pointed out.

Given that and your other thread, there are two things I'd add to what I said before;

I think labour have been very guilty of performative "wokeness", or what might often be termed "champagne socialism" in an attempt to appeal to a group that seems bigger than it is, because it's louder than its size in numbers, but a lot of that rhetoric and a lot of those policies don't appeal whatsoever to the centre-left, or really, just to the average joe who can largely see that the Tories are uncaring scum but are more afraid of that loud group of moral absolutists. "Better the devil" and all that.

Which plays into the second point I had here; you point out that the left has been pretty much purged, I agree or at least agree that the top of the party is trying hard to do so, however ... it would be a massive assumption to think that the bulk of voters are politically active or aware enough to actually know what's happening within Labour. Labour will = Corbyn for quite a few years to come in the minds of the less-politically-engaged.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is largely correct but it's left behind a husk and not much more; a barebones collection of people without a core ideology lurching between New Labour and Corbynism instead of wiping the table and refocussing on the core issues that centre-left voters are actually concerned with, areas that are being failed in massively by the Tories as you've pointed out.

Given that and your other thread, there are two things I'd add to what I said before;

I think labour have been very guilty of performative "wokeness", or what might often be termed "champagne socialism" in an attempt to appeal to a group that seems bigger than it is, because it's louder than its size in numbers, but a lot of that rhetoric and a lot of those policies don't appeal whatsoever to the centre-left, or really, just to the average joe who can largely see that the Tories are uncaring scum but are more afraid of that loud group of moral absolutists. "Better the devil" and all that.

Which plays into the second point I had here; you point out that the left has been pretty much purged, I agree or at least agree that the top of the party is trying hard to do so, however ... it would be a massive assumption to think that the bulk of voters are politically active or aware enough to actually know what's happening within Labour. Labour will = Corbyn for quite a few years to come in the minds of the less-politically-engaged.

There isn't any Corbyn faction left, so I completely disagree with you saying there is a husk. The left have been completely ejected and sidelined. This current labour party should be a centrist/labour rights paradise. Where is the Corbynism coming from within the party?

If voters still see Corbyn as the problem with labour, then it's interesting they would wait for him to leave before taking it out on the party, because Corbyn had his own party working against him from the minute he took over, and never once performed this badly, and his policies are still extremely popular when polled.

There is a simpler explanation that the country is lurching dangerously to the right, and with the soapbox and media amplifying the same dangerous non-conformist buzzwords into their mics everyday, it is the natural conclusion, when coupled with a narcissistic pm and his cabal actively looking to take advantage of the situation for themselves.

I believe the use of wokeness is little more than a method to delegitimise anyone that speaks up against the regime. The courts are woke according to Boris and Priti, folks saying don't be racist are woke according to Andrew Neil, and on and on it goes.

It's easier to call someone woke than to ponder out loud why they can't be as racist as they'd like. It also has the aspect of divide and conquor purposefully built in, and when mixed with the English love of all things toff, it works as we're seeing.

[Swan]

You never know what you're going to get from Labour, there's massive inconsistencies, massive flip flopping across the board. The same could be said for the Tories at times, but Labour seems to be such a divided party and they lack any form of consistency or true leadership. The party unity is non-existent at the moment.

Can't say im a great fan of either party, however from the outside looking in it's easy to see why life-long Labour voters have lost all faith in the current regime.

Edit - As for the actual thread title question, i don't honestly know what they like anymore.

[bitontheslide]

i think the labour party have become an echo chamber pretty much like social media. They reinforce each others doctrines, everyone in their bubble goes ... yeah, lets have more of that, and the result is, it bears no relation to what the population of the uk believe is important to them. The labour party are trying to change the populations thinking rather than reflect what the population actually want.

[arista]

Conservative MP's
have had calls for better bin collection.

Not about Starmer standing in a John Lewis
Wall Paper section.


We do not need silly tactics Starmer?


Ref:LBC, Times Radio DAB, Radio 4, Radio 5
BBCnewsHD, SkyNewsHD, Ch4HDnews & Wion HD

[arista]

[LeatherTrumpet]

But Sir Keir Starmer and his people are no less distant from Labour’s former heartland. It was perfectly respectable for them to
oppose Brexit at the referendum, but it was reprehensible to try to stop it afterwards by using lawyers’ tricks against the
largest vote for anything in British history. A constituency which voted nearly 70 per cent for Brexit has taken its by-election
chance to say to Labour and its ultra-Remainer candidate: “How many times do we have to tell you?” A similar percentage re-
elected the Conservative Ben Houchen as Mayor of the wider Teesside.

In the current, divisive culture wars, Mr Corbyn and Sir Keir are on the same, wrong side. At the height of last year’s Black
Lives Matter madness, Sir Keir and his deputy Angela Rayner were photographed “taking the knee”. They live in a world in
which “human rights” have become synonymous with well-paid litigation on behalf of extremists – making life tough, for
example, for British ex-servicemen in Northern Ireland and easier for former members of the IRA. They do not seem much
interested in the rights of people in places like Hartlepool. Voters notice.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...t-exaggerated/

as per Charles nails it

[The Slim Reaper]

Imagine thinking that supporting equality puts anyone on the wrong side, although I get why some would feel like that. It's truly bizarro world at the moment. I imagine these times are like thatchers time, a pm and party openly hostile to the working classes and immigrants, being voted in by the same folks that have watched their communities destroyed.

I was making a bit of food earlier with the radio on, and a caller from Hartlepool phoned in to praise the tories for giving them 9 foodbanks, not criticising them for the austerity that made them a necessity. We have a one party state with the media echoing the government exactly in an increasingly authoritarian society with a government removing checks and accountability from themselves by the day.

The areas in which labour did well - such as preston, salford, and wales all had an identity and a vision to offer. Everywhere else they were nondescript tory-lites.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Imagine thinking that supporting equality puts anyone on the wrong side, although I get why some would feel like that. It's truly bizarro world at the moment. I imagine these times are like thatchers time, a pm and party openly hostile to the working classes and immigrants, being voted in by the same folks that have watched their communities destroyed.



I was making a bit of food earlier with the radio on, and a caller from Hartlepool phoned in to praise the tories for giving them 9 foodbanks, not criticising them for the austerity that made them a necessity. We have a one party state with the media echoing the government exactly in an increasingly authoritarian society with a government removing checks and accountability from themselves by the day.



The areas in which labour did well - such as preston, salford, and wales all had an identity and a vision to offer. Everywhere else they were nondescript tory-lites.

All those problems you mentioned go back way further than ten years ...


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[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Zizu

All those problems you mentioned go back way further than ten years ...


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If only there was data. Look at foodbank usage prior to 2010 tory austerity vs now.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

If only there was data. Look at foodbank usage prior to 2010 tory austerity vs now.

What’s the data for the five years before that ??


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[Tom4784]

I don't think anyone with common sense should like the UK as it stands, it's terrible and nothing will ever change because the public don't mind swallowing Tory **** because they think that someone they don't like is suffering worse.

We live in a repugnant spineless country, and the few things that are good about it atm are under threat by the tories and a complacent public that's all too happy with Boris stamping on their throats.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Dr Janice Morphet, a visiting professor at University College London and author of Beyond
Brexit, has said: “a good showing at the local elections could encourage Johnson to make
a run for an early general election - after a good summer, while booster jabs are being
given and before any new variants require further lockdowns later in the year”. Whether
that happens or not, Starmer’s next moves will be vital. As even he admits, his party still
has “a mountain to climb” to win back voters.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...e-b933749.html

[arista]

John McDonnell
said on Marr BBC1HD
he (Starmer) needs to give Jeremy Corbyn back his whip?