[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Exactly Ammi it is one small factor in the story of, when looking into it, it seems a deeply disturbed and probably quite dangerous individual. Why the hyper-focus on self-ID as though that's the over-riding issue with this person? They are abusing and manipulating the system to selfish and worrying ends but the message people are keen to be taken from it, is that the problem is with the entire concept of self-ID, and not the individual. People abuse legal systems literally every day, and they require tweaking and adapting to try to ensure that there are fewer and fewer loopholes... it doesn't require a "baby out with the bathwater" rejection of the entire concept, because the risk is quite clearly in going too far the other way, i.e. the requirement of medical or psychiatric confirmation of identity. And anyone who thinks that is a good idea has far too much faith in those professions. Psychology is a complex, diverse and ever-changing discipline and there is literally no such thing as a beyond-question "expert". The idea that someone's personal identity would need that "confirmed by a professional" to be taken seriously, is not a very comfortable route to go down.

...I do think self ID has to be looked at closely to tighten up on loopholes and to protect females in that...any of those women could have refused to wax anyone for whatever reason...?...(...except if that reason is discriminatory, that’s when a refusal can’t happen obviously...)...and the law has upheld his side, that it was refused because of trans discrimination....

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

yes, he clearly is, the worrying issue is that he is able to exploit the imbalance in existing systems to perpetuate his behaviour and be protected by those systems at the same time. The fact that a section of the population has that much power over others should be worrying to everyone

[Tom4784]

I decided to google the story to see if I could find an article that covers the story without any bias towards or against transgenderism and I couldn't really find any articles. It seems like mainstream media hasn't really bothered with this story at all.

If the story is as it's reported then the person in question is indeed a predator and should be treated as such. They use the law to run their con and worse still, it seems like they might actually be a peadophile. It's kinda remarkable that this story hasn't been picked up by the media yet, with more spotlight the victims in this story might finally get their justice.

I do disagree with the headline of this article in particular though, while I agree with self ID'ing yourself as transgender shouldn't be something that can be enforced on others by law, I dislike how this article seems to use this pathetic excuse of a human being to **** on transgender rights as a whole.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

This guy sounds like a pervert to me.

This was my first thought..he didn't want treatment he wanted titillation.

[Ammi]

..i haven’t listened to it all yet but there’s a vid here of around 25 minutes of the human rights tribunal...Yaniv compared the business owner who had refused the wax to a neo nazi...


https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/event...roversy?full=1

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I decided to google the story to see if I could find an article that covers the story without any bias towards or against transgenderism and I couldn't really find any articles. It seems like mainstream media hasn't really bothered with this story at all.

If the story is as it's reported then the person in question is indeed a predator and should be treated as such. They use the law to run their con and worse still, it seems like they might actually be a peadophile. It's kinda remarkable that this story hasn't been picked up by the media yet, with more spotlight the victims in this story might finally get their justice.

I do disagree with the headline of this article in particular though, while I agree with self ID'ing yourself as transgender shouldn't be something that can be enforced on others by law, I dislike how this article seems to use this pathetic excuse of a human being to **** on transgender rights as a whole.

That's most of what I've been able to find, too; it's a case that's been picked up as a confirmation bias "poster child example" of something that was already being assumed to be a problem. A sort of "Aha! See! I *knew* it! Take that, nay-sayers!". Which frankly is exactly what happened on this thread too... on the first page, before anyone had said anything .

There also seems to be an issue of different reports about this individual not entirely matching up with each other, and a serious lack of overall information.

I think there's a real risk here of a case involving an extreme individual who would be doing **** like this regardless, being used as a realistic example of "what might happen" and honestly again I have to reiterate that the logic is absolutely no different to using an extremist attack to point at immigration and declare it problematic.

[Cherie]

Its so extreme that he would more likely be facing a charge now if he weren't calling himself a woman, rather than being entertained by people who are fearful of repercussions

[Ammi]

...Ricky Gervais is speaking out about this individual ....and being labelled a transphobe by some for doing so...


https://kiwifarms.net/threads/ricky-...twitter.58756/

[Ammi]

...Ricky Gervais is speaking out about this individual ....


https://kiwifarms.net/threads/ricky-...twitter.58756/

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Its so extreme that he would more likely be facing a charge now if he weren't calling himself a woman, rather than being entertained by people who are fearful of repercussions

That's right. And I don't think ridiculing and belittling women's concerns, questioning her motives when she's already explained will do anything to make self-ID more acceptable. It feels like men controlling women.... still.

Has there been any trouble, any trouble at all I wonder, with women self-identifying is a man? Has a man been prosecuted because a self-identified female to male has taken anything a step too far. No.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Ricky Gervais is speaking out about this individual ....


https://kiwifarms.net/threads/ricky-...twitter.58756/

not KiwiFarms surely Ammi. Come on now.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

not KiwiFarms surely Ammi. Come on now.

...(...honestly I don’t know what kiwifarms is, I’m just trying to see what I can find that would expand some of this story a bit more.....)...you kiwifarm phobic, you...

[user104658]

"Kiwi Farms, formerly known as CWCki Forums, is an American Internet forum dedicated to the ongoing harassment and stalking of online figures and communities it deems "lolcows": the eccentric, artistic, or mentally ill.[3] The targets of threads are often subject to doxing, sealioning and other forms of organized group trolling, including real-life harassment by users"

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"Kiwi Farms, formerly known as CWCki Forums, is an American Internet forum dedicated to the ongoing harassment and stalking of online figures and communities it deems "lolcows": the eccentric, artistic, or mentally ill.[3] The targets of threads are often subject to doxing, sealioning and other forms of organized group trolling, including real-life harassment by users"

...oooops similar to the DM, then.....

[Kizzy]

I'd shave the guys balls for free, I have a nice rusty razor ready

[Ammi]

...I guess what’s being said, TS...is that within ‘self ID’ and within protecting females, there are problems...there are loopholes and things that have to be addressed ...because there are those who can and will abuse and manipulate etc...and even if that is the smallest of percentages...which it quite likely could be...?...it’s something that many women fear and those fears have to be voiced and they have to be able to be voiced without another layer of fear of being labelled phobic...?...it’s very complex as you know...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The point of the matter is these new laws leave the door open for people like Yaniv to abuse, so why should trans rights trump womens rights and put them at risk?

Serious question TS, do you really think this is all about me being anti trans? I've always been pretty feminist, it's much more logical to assume that I'm just worried about womens rights. I'm sure I could go back a few years and find posts supporting Trans people pre Self IDing, If i tried. It is disappointing that you would think that about me I have to say

I'm about here... live and let live I say. But when the rights of one start trampling the rights of another? No
Womens rights were hard fought and hard won...to suggest they now come a poor second to self ID? ... nah mate.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think the way these threads are brought up and presented do usually contain elements of literal transphobia, yes. You can disagree and dislike that opinion but I'm just calling it as I see it. And again I'm talking about literal phobia - I get that these things are legitimately rooted in fear not bigotry - but it's a fear that's often out of proportion with the actual level of risk. Extreme examples are used as if they are, or are ever likely to be, commonplace occurrences. Liek there being a predatory paedophile in Canada exploiting trans rights to their own ends means that it'll become a global free-for-all. It isn't rational.

Thank you TS for this post.

[Kizzy]

It's not phobic to be concerned about precidents being set in court that marginalise women ..which is what happened in Canada.
There is a very real concern that that could translate here too. Why is it transphobic to have this opinion?
This is why women can't speak out as they are automatically given this horrible label.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can accept that purely in the context of this thread, I may have gone in a little hard based on past experiences of these threads. Past threads on these topics have gone in a distinctly angry general anti-trans direction. I know there'll be people who will argue that they haven't, but for me that's not an opinion that's going to change.

I also can't agree that a thread about an obviously extreme example of a disturbed individual works well to support a general point. Does it mean things need to be looked at? Maybe, as a tiny fragment of a much broader discussion, but this is not the "Gotcha!!" moment that people want it to be. That would be like seeing a story about a dog attacking a child and announcing that "clearly" the regulations around dog ownership must be changed "and if you don't agree, you aren't considering the children".

But it is a gotcha moment. Not for trans people but in respect of the way courts handle these cases... its in Canada but it could just as easily be here. It's not in anyway phobic to voice a concern, being labelled phobic for having a say as a woman is wrong .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But it is a gotcha moment. Not for trans people but in respect of the way courts handle these cases... its in Canada but it could just as easily be here. It's not in anyway phobic to voice a concern, being labelled phobic for having a say as a woman is wrong .

"A Gotcha Moment" has no place in any rational debate or assessment of a situation though Kizzy. How many "gotcha moments" do Brexiteers and other anti-immigration advocates have, otherwise? Every terrorist incident involving an immigrant in the UK. Every drug crime committed by a Mexican immigrant in the US. "Gotcha gotcha gotcha!!" all day long from Trump, Hopkins, Tommy Robinson... right?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I decided to google the story to see if I could find an article that covers the story without any bias towards or against transgenderism and I couldn't really find any articles. It seems like mainstream media hasn't really bothered with this story at all.

If the story is as it's reported then the person in question is indeed a predator and should be treated as such. They use the law to run their con and worse still, it seems like they might actually be a peadophile. It's kinda remarkable that this story hasn't been picked up by the media yet, with more spotlight the victims in this story might finally get their justice.

I do disagree with the headline of this article in particular though, while I agree with self ID'ing yourself as transgender shouldn't be something that can be enforced on others by law, I dislike how this article seems to use this pathetic excuse of a human being to **** on transgender rights as a whole.

If you watch the video at the end of the article it's an actual interview with yaniv, so maybe that might be helpful? It is worrying though as to why a story like this hasn't been picked up by mainstream media imo

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Its so extreme that he would more likely be facing a charge now if he weren't calling himself a woman, rather than being entertained by people who are fearful of repercussions

Exactly this is the whole issue, people are not allowed to speak about it for fear of backlash, look at what happened to martina Navratilova when she voiced her opinion on Self Iding in sport

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

If you watch the video at the end of the article it's an actual interview with yaniv, so maybe that might be helpful? It is worrying though as to why a story like this hasn't been picked up by mainstream media imo

Perhaps it hasn't been picked up because they know that it won't simply be taken as a story about a seriously messed up individual, but as "Gotcha" ammunition for a wider campaign, and there will be associated backlash. Though I suppose it's odd in the sense that the MSM isn't usually bothered about spoonfeeding people gunpowder.

[Ammi]

...I’m just listening to the interview now...it feels as though he chooses people who he knows will refuse for whatever reason...with the sole purpose of challenging them../...tribunals../...and settlements...