[Josy]

Has anyone watched this limited series on Netflix?

A Cleveland grandfather is brought to trial in Israel, accused of being the infamous German death camp guard known as Ivan the Terrible.

If you've watched it, what are your thoughts on it?

[Niamh.]

Bit late Josy but we've just started watching this, I'm 2 episodes in now

Spoiler:

I was pretty convinced it was him at the start, his manner is very odd, he almost seems to be smirking when the Holocaust survivors are telling their horrific stories however I've just gotten to the part when one of the witnesses has been reminded about a statement he gave back in the 1940's saying that one of his fellow prisoners had killed Ivan the terrible so I'm not passing judgement just yet. As a side note that lawyer Sheftel is a creep, definitely loving the attention of it all. Really didn't like how he's treated the holocaust survivors/witnesses so far

[Ammi]

...is this worth a watch..?...it’s the first I’ve heard of it...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...is this worth a watch..?...it’s the first I’ve heard of it...

It's very good so far anyway. It's mostly live footage of his trial in Israel so far. Such horrific and upsetting stories from the survivors though but I think it's important that they're heard too

[UserSince2005]

Was he a pirate?

[Niamh.]

Half way through ep 5 now, Ammi I swear this is the best true crime documentary you will ever watch, what a roller coaster. I'll do a proper review when I'm finished

Ugh seriously though I've been jumping off my seat in some parts

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Half way through ep 5 now, Ammi I swear this is the best true crime documentary you will ever watch, what a roller coaster. I'll do a proper review when I'm finished

Ugh seriously though I've been jumping off my seat in some parts

...I going to try to start watching this today if I can...

[Ammi]

...I’ve only just begun to watch but just a quick thought....

Spoiler:

....obviously it’s unspeakable and inhuman what was done by him, I’m presuming that he was Ivan ...and also that there appeared to be gratification as well...but considering that he was proclaiming innocence and that it wasn’t him and considering how hideous the crimes were...would anyone smile going into a courtroom, I mean...what an horrendous experience for an apparent innocent person and they were smiling...

[Ammi]

...I’ve just finished watching this...I’m not sure what to say really, it’s left me quite flat...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I’ve just finished watching this...I’m not sure what to say really, it’s left me quite flat...

Spoiler:

After the first trial I thought he may be innocent but then after the appeal I was convinced of his guilt so was shocked they found him innocent. It did feel so unjust that he lived till 91 and died before he was convicted. His behaviour in court was chilling as well, the smirking and trying to shake on of the victims hands

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Spoiler:

After the first trial I thought he may be innocent but then after the appeal I was convinced of his guilt so was shocked they found him innocent. It did feel so unjust that he lived till 91 and died before he was convicted. His behaviour in court was chilling as well, the smirking and trying to shake on of the victims hands

Spoiler:

...that’s what’s left such a flat and sad feeling, that he could do the things he did and have lived a full life ...and actually gone through the court system in Israel as well, been found guilty and sentenced to death and yet he still lived that full life...it’s almost like when that lady said...how are you feeling, okay...ok, well that’s all fine, then/move on...I mean, I know it wasn’t like that but that’s how it felt...all of the cold cases when we know the guilt but it couldn’t be proven are pretty horrendous but this /what he did was on a different level...what he did to people and it feels like for gratification...and ughhhh, I don’t even know where to start...when the court was asked, could you please just get these survivors who have had their loved ones tortured and slaughtered...to nicely write down the events so as not to have the emotion seen by public/media with the cameras because that’s just not good for his case...?....right from the beginning, when he was smiling going into court and smiling through the trial...it just for me showed that with all of that time for reflection, he still had no care at all for any of them as human to human and the inhuman actions and losses he’d caused them to endure...he really was a sociopath completely detached from it all...you know watching Hunters...?...I wondered that in real life, would older Nazis still be that evil over time that, that depicted...but he really was that evil, even at 91 yrs of age...he would have gone to his death with no conscience or sorrow is what I truly believe....

[Ammi]

Spoiler:

...throwing acid in the defence lawyer’s face to ‘Mark’ him for life, though...that was horrendous also....but I did also feel that it was all just a career thing for him and he also must have been a bit sociopathic....

[Niamh.]

Spoiler:

yeah that lawyer was awful, he was loving being the bad guy and the infamy that came with the case. He was unnecessarily disrespectful to those survivors who testified as well.

I would wonder as well about Demjanjuk's family, what they really knew and if they really hadn't known and just found out, how could they continue to support him, family or not

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Spoiler:

yeah that lawyer was awful, he was loving being the bad guy and the infamy that came with the case. He was unnecessarily disrespectful to those survivors who testified as well.

I would wonder as well about Demjanjuk's family, what they really knew and if they really hadn't known and just found out, how could they continue to support him, family or not

Spoiler:

...I wondered that about his family as well, did they know...if they didn’t then wow, he must have really been devoid of any emotion or conscience...on a side note, watching it again, I found the fall/pulling down of the Berlin Wall incredibly emotional still...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Spoiler:

...I wondered that about his family as well, did they know...if they didn’t then wow, he must have really been devoid of any emotion or conscience...on a side note, watching it again, I found the fall/pulling down of the Berlin Wall incredibly emotional still...

Spoiler:

So odd how people like him function, how could you do those things and then go on to get married, have kids and work in a car factory like nothing ever happened?

Yeah, the wall coming down feels like forever ago in one way but also not that long ago, remember when there used to be an East German and West German soccer team? That feels recent

[UserSince2005]

Just binged this. And almost at the end.

What a horrible man. He was definitely a collaborator. How he managed to get away with what he did for 60 years is beyond me. So many people escaped justice.

The Israelis went about it the completely wrong way.
I love trips to tel aviv but this really made me see Israeli in a different light.
Not flattering at all.
Some of the people who testified should have been locked up for their blatant lies.
Also never really thought about it but to be able to survive a death camp you must have been doing something the nazi liked
The Rosenberg chap clearly did a lot of things wrong in his life and felt so much guilt that he had to just make up lies about some random person in front of him who he is told is a nazi to paint himself out to be a hero.

The true hero of the story is the lawyer. What a character.

[UserSince2005]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

Was he a pirate?

This was asked because I know the Israelis tried nazis as pirates to allow for jurisdiction

[UserSince2005]

I think for someone evil like him he was like; if I’m guilty then I will go down in history as Ivan the terrible and although i never knew I was its a bad bitch badge to have, and if I’m not then I’ve just got away with mass murder and I can go back to Cleveland.
That’s why he was so meh and nonchalant about the whole trial.
It was win/win for him.
Definitely an evil man.