[Redway]

This topic of discussion’s been brewing for a long time {Oliver_W, [dare-I say it] Soldier Boy and (even more shockingly) LeatherTrumpet, you’re wanted in here} so I figured we might as well just have it out once and for-all. It’s a fluid (excuse the irony) topic so similarly I’m leaving the more exact interpretation of this theme open and the poll-options (which the likes of Alf know too well were always going to come) relatively broad, maybe even multi.-choice, but the meat and bones of what I’m drawing up as a discussion is whether people think it really is a totally healthy way of being or whether the line has to be drawn at some point before Oxford Dictionary redefines what it is to be male/female.

[Mystic Mock]

I'll be completely honest and say that I'm mixed on the whole thing.

I honestly don't want Trans groups being persecuted or isolated from society, and I don't hate Trans people on a personal level.

However I don't support them taking part in women's Sport due to the obvious Biological advantages that Transwomen will have over Ciswomen (I hope I've got the term right) but personally I am fine with the Trans community in pretty much every other area.

Non-Binary again I'll be honest, I again don't hate the community because why would I? But I won't pretend to fully understand it either, but then again I don't have to for the Non-Binary person to be happy.

[Cherie]

There needs to, be some safeguarding around self idling, woman only spaces and sport we can’t just bulldoze through hard fought women’s rights to accommodate a small percentage of the population much and all as we want to be inclusive

[Oliver_W]

I'm yet to hear a coherent argument as to why a man who identifies as a woman is fundamentally different or has a more valid delusion than an anorexic person who believes they're grossly overweight.

The biggest difference between the two is that weight is something which can be changed.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Sherry hic mas

There needs to, be some safeguarding around self idling, woman only spaces and sport we can’t just bulldoze through hard fought women’s rights to accommodate a small percentage of the population much and all as we want to be inclusive

The problem now Cherie,thanks to awful platforms like tiktok ... The word 'trans' & 'non binary ' is being added to everything. A gay man is no longer just a gay man ,he has to be a 'non binary q
trans' person aswell,I wish I was making this up. There's a bunch of very loud activists who have sent the trans and LGBT community in general backwards. And if you dare to get confused by what they're saying ,or if you 'misgender' them by accident ,then you'll forever be labelled a 'terf' or a 'bigot'.

The trans thing needs to be handled with alot more support & help, and like you say more safeguarding. And I'm against kids transitioning 100% . And I don't want people to take advantage of loopholes either. I still believe transexual/ transgender is a real thing ,but I truly only think you can be trans if you have gender dysphoria. It's not just a label & accessory, it's something serious people are struggling with.

And these influencers need to stop treating it like it's a quick trip to the Salon to get their nails done. When genuine trans people are in pain .

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Christmas Lights

The problem now Cherie,thanks to awful platforms like tiktok ... The word 'trans' & 'non binary ' is being added to everything. A gay man is no longer just a gay man ,he has to be a 'non binary q
trans' person aswell,I wish I was making this up. There's a bunch of very loud activists who have sent the trans and LGBT community in general backwards. And if you dare to get confused by what they're saying ,or if you 'misgender' them by accident ,then you'll forever be labelled a 'terf' or a 'bigot'.

The trans thing needs to be handled with alot more support & help, and like you say more safeguarding. And I'm against kids transitioning 100% . And I want want people to take advantage of loopholes either. I still believe transexual/ transgender is a real thing ,but I truly only think you can be trans if you have gender dysphoria. It's not just a label & accessory, it's someth

I feel sorry for the genuine trans community as they have been completely hijacked by attention seekers

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Sherry hic mas

I feel sorry for the genuine trans community as they have been completely hijacked by attention seekers

Sadly every community gets attention seekers hijack their group.

Especially on the Internet.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Sherry hic mas

I feel sorry for the genuine trans community as they have been completely hijacked by attention seekers

Just had to edit my post ,it sent without me wanting it to lol.

[Livia]

Transsexual people should do whatever they can to live a happy life, whether that's having surgery or not. We're not here for long, best try to be as happy as you can.

However, Transsexual women are transsexual women and I'm tired of (some) of them trying to dictate who I am and what I call myself. I am a natural women and they are not like me. My belief is that female to male trans people get on with it and try to be happy. Male to female trans people are different, they've been brought up male, with all the advantage that brings.

I am happy for everyone to be happy.

[Niamh.]

Not going to go round in circles with this one again but I just wanted to point out that the term "transsexual" is probably considered transphobic these days. When people "identified" as transexuals there was never a real problem. It's the muddying of the waters now with female penises and gender over ruling sex is where the the problems for women started arising

[Beso]

I'd rather they used womens toilets than mens.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Transsexual people should do whatever they can to live a happy life, whether that's having surgery or not. We're not here for long, best try to be as happy as you can.

However, Transsexual women are transsexual women and I'm tired of (some) of them trying to dictate who I am and what I call myself. I am a natural women and they are not like me. My belief is that female to male trans people get on with it and try to be happy. Male to female trans people are different, they've been brought up male, with all the advantage that brings.

I am happy for everyone to be happy.

When it does effect men it's a different story too. Women can't identify into privilege, for example there's an inheritance law where male heirs benefit financially or inherit titles, a transman can not claim that, only born men can

Until 2004, transgender people were not formally recognised
by English law in their acquired sex. Then came the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004, which allows them to be fully recognised in their new gender by the law, provided they meet certain criteria. But the lawyers who thrashed out the act must have debated the issue of trans toffs, because they made one exception. Section 16 states: 'The fact that a person's gender has become the acquired gender under this Act (a) does not affect the descent of any peerage or dignity or title of honour, and (b) does not affect the devolution of any property.' So, as the law stands, the marquess's transgender brother would not get the dukedom.

https://www.tatler.com/article/trans-toffs

Also, in the US men can't identify out of the draft, Biden is only OK with trans stuff stomping on womens rights it seems

Trans women will now have to sign-up for the military service because they were assigned male at birth. However, cis women are not asked to register. The Selective Service System requires all 'U.S. citizens or immigrants who are born male and have changed their gender to female' to still enrol for the draft

https://www.gendergp.com/trans-women...ilitary-draft/

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Christmas Neeve

Not going to go round in circles with this one again but I just wanted to point out that the term "transsexual" is probably considered transphobic these days. When people "identified" as transexuals there was never a real problem. It's the muddying of the waters now with female penises and gender over ruling sex is where the the problems for women started arising

Buck Angel & Blaire White call themselves 'transexual' ,they don't consider it 'phobic' .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Christmas Lights

Buck Angel & Blaire White call themselves 'transexual' ,they don't consider it 'phobic' .

No they don't but Buck Angel and Blair White are called transphobic and "truscum" by the TRAs/MRAs

[user104658]

Just far, far too complex a subject to be covered by these options (or in any brief/summed up way). That includes mantras, slogans and dogma of all persuasions. Anyone who starts this discussion with something like "Look, it's simple..." isn't worth exchanging another word with on the topic ... it couldn't be further from simple.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Christmas Neeve

No they don't but Buck Angel and Blair White are called transphobic and "truscum" by the TRAs/MRAs

Yeah everyone gets called a phobic for anything these days . Buck is also getting called something similar to a terf, with the word medicalisation in .... just because he believes & acknowledges biology .

People are bursting in tears on tiktok due to being "misgendered" by 4 year old children , like seriously what has the world come to . These little kids are still scribbling with crayons & getting playdough in their hair ,and they're expected to remember every pronoun out there ?? .

[user104658]

I'm going to poke the bee hive here with a quite controversial opinion when it comes to trans and mental health ...

I think that a lot of the time where you see a combination of someone being trans or some variety of NB and also having mental health issues, it's not that they had mental health issues that lead them to being trans. It's the other way around.

A lot of circumstance-based mental health (i.e. non-clinical/medical) comes down to an inability to reconcile one's own subjective perceptions and ideas about reality with the evidence being presented (what you might call objective reality). I think this is somewhat recognised; it's where the "literal murder" idea comes from, the idea that it's "other people's lack of acceptance" that leads trans people down a path of depression and to suicide.

I personally think that's a red herring. Because there's such a wide array of opinion WITHIN the community - basically that gender is completely fluid in an individual to the point of being irrelevant AND that gender is an all-encompassing and integral aspect of self... ideas that unavoidably clash and yet are both insisted upon as being equally valid... there are massive portions of trans ideology that are self-contradictory and irreconcilable and yet can never be addressed as any attempt to acknowledge or tackle this quandary is seen as phobic, even within academia. All views are individual and equally valid, all are reality, even when they logically can't co-exist as fact. It's a paradox. The only answer to that is cognitive dissonance, again even within academia.

Holding onto cognitive dissonance long term, with something that you consider to be a fundamental part of your very existence, inevitably is going to lead to high levels of anxiety and associated mental health struggles. Imagine trying to juggle a heard of flaming elephants when if you drop one, your entire sense of self comes into question. The sheer level of vigilance and intellectual firefighting needed to do that on a daily basis isn't sustainable in any healthy way.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Just far, far too complex a subject to be covered by these options (or in any brief/summed up way). That includes mantras, slogans and dogma of all persuasions. Anyone who starts this discussion with something like "Look, it's simple..." isn't worth exchanging another word with on the topic ... it couldn't be further from simple.

It’s far from simple but there’s only so much introductory leeway I could be arsed setting the tone with for one early Wednesday morning. You can go into as much or as little detail on the subject as you personally want.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Livia

Transsexual people should do whatever they can to live a happy life, whether that's having surgery or not. We're not here for long, best try to be as happy as you can.

However, Transsexual women are transsexual women and I'm tired of (some) of them trying to dictate who I am and what I call myself. I am a natural women and they are not like me. My belief is that female to male trans people get on with it and try to be happy. Male to female trans people are different, they've been brought up male, with all the advantage that brings.

I am happy for everyone to be happy.

Nice to have you back around, Liv. It’s been a minute.

As far as the content of your post per-se goes I do agree.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I'll be completely honest and say that I'm mixed on the whole thing.

I honestly don't want Trans groups being persecuted or isolated from society, and I don't hate Trans people on a personal level.

However I don't support them taking part in women's Sport due to the obvious Biological advantages that Transwomen will have over Ciswomen (I hope I've got the term right) but personally I am fine with the Trans community in pretty much every other area.

Non-Binary again I'll be honest, I again don't hate the community because why would I? But I won't pretend to fully understand it either, but then again I don't have to for the Non-Binary person to be happy.

All of the above


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Cherie

There needs to, be some safeguarding around self idling, woman only spaces and sport we can’t just bulldoze through hard fought women’s rights to accommodate a small percentage of the population much and all as we want to be inclusive

^ This^


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Nicky91]

trans people are also people with feelings, emotions


non-binary people are also people with feelings, emotions



i first thought of non-binary people with the they/them pronouns as very confusing for me, i kept saying he/she at first but i'm beginning to learn to identify them correctly

[user104658]

My opinion remains the same as ever really - ultimately people's lives and how they live them are their own choice, but safeguarding has to be at the top of the agenda. That's safeguarding for women's spaces, safeguarding for children questioning their identity ("automatic affirmation" over and above "learning and self reflection" is a disaster and should never have been a thing), safeguarding of basically everyone by allowing proper full understanding of the psychology behind gender identity and how it intersects with a multitude of other things. Literally everyone has been let down by the politicisation of this.

Thankfully the furore seems to be exiting the zeitgeist and in quieter times, the grown ups might be able to engage in some academic curiosity without constant hounding and harassment, which might lead to some ACTUALLY fair and progressive policy (not the blunt instrument bashing we've had from all sides).