[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I have to say, she's growing on me. She's definitely showing her more caring side and I'm all for it.

Nothing she has done has been caring. Everything has been self serving.

Trying to groom Hanah away from the lads, for example, is not 'caring' about Hanah... It's just getting another nom to support her, or at least to not be on her.

Ali saw weakness and exploited it.

[BBXX]

Imagine going through life seeing the worst in people you don't know. Talk about exhausting.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't think she is, I think Ali misunderstood her, she was upset she hadn't jellied with any of the women, that doesn't mean she doesn't like the men she's friends with anymore

I agree with this, I think Ali misunderstood, too.

[FromBB8]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Imagine going through life seeing the worst in people you don't know. Talk about exhausting.

Isn't that reality TV all over? Live in the now, and live at the extreme. Once it's over, interest will die and so will the bile.

The issue for me, with Ali, is she hasn't got much credit in the bank. Everything she does is going to be looked through the prism of how she acted previously, even if she is now finding her place in the house and coming from a place of genuine concern.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Imagine going through life seeing the worst in people you don't know. Talk about exhausting.

I don't automatically see the worst in people and i am positive about a lot of people, my wide range of posts here support that, I simply recognise the plays and behaviours in Ali.

Ali has groomed and manipulated her way through this entire series. It's who she is.

Imagine attempting to smear the speaker rather than talk about the point being made. This seems to be a really common thing in Ali fans.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Imagine attempting to smear the speaker rather than talk about the point being made. This seems to be a really common thing in Ali fans.

Because the dislike against Ali from many is relentless, and unforgiving based on individual interpretation and It just comes across vindictive. Even my least favourites I balance out with their good points and so when they do have nice moments I take things at face value, because I appreciate we're not seeing a full picture of who that person is.

Fair enough if others don't want to do that, but I personally find that negative and cruel and don't mind saying it.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Because the dislike against Ali from many is relentless, and unforgiving based on individual interpretation and It just comes across vindictive... I personally find that negative and cruel and don't mind saying it.

Just because you fail to see the truth in Ali's actions there is no need to try and label others in such extreme ways that do.

I forgive when change is made and forgiveness is earned. Ali continues to be a cynical self-serving manipulator.

Anyhow, I consider attacking other forum members and making personal comments to be petty and cheap so I won't fall into that trap here and have a personal slanging match with you. I don't think that proves or changes anything to do with Ali. I am here to the best that I can just to debate HMs and their actions, not try and make moral judgements on others in the forum for having different takes.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Anyhow, I consider attacking other forum members and making personal comments to be petty and cheap so I won't fall into that trap here and have a personal slanging match with you. I don't think that proves or changes anything to do with Ali. I am here to the best that I can just to debate HMs and their actions, not try and make moral judgements on others in the forum for having different takes.

That's fair enough and I apologise for doing so. But have you considered that saying people are "fooled" by her and have "failed to see the truth" is it's own form of judgement on person's intellect, rather than morals?

It also frames your interpretation and opinion as factual while anyone who disagrees as false which is not how opinions work while also being somewhat undermining.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

saying people are "fooled" by her and have "failed to see the truth" is it's own form of judgement on person's intellect, rather than morals?

Intelligent people are fooled and misled everyday. In fact, in life often the more intelligent a person is the easier they are to fool because they are so sure of their own superiority.

Me saying that some are fooled by her of course is in no way a moral judgement.

But, you are still trying super hard to make this about me rather than the points I make about Ali.

[BBXX]

Okay.

Just to add, I didn't say it was a moral judgement I said it was a judgement on someone's intellect.

It seems we both have issues with how the other one posts so I won't converse with you moving forward.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Okay.

Just to add, I didn't say it was a moral judgement I said it was a judgement on someone's intellect.

It seems we both have issues with how the other one posts so I won't converse with you moving forward.

That's a very Ali thing to say.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It seems we both have issues with how the other one posts so I won't converse with you moving forward.

I am happy to talk to anyone as long as they can stick to talking about the HMs.

I am just not interested in petty point scoring against forum members. I don't take anything personally here I just dislike the white noise of deflection and petty insults. Honestly, some here seem to hate other FMs so much but I see this all as just part of the game. I don't dislike a person just because they see a HM differently this year... They will probably be agreeing with me in another one.

I am sorry that you can't just engage in this manner and just talk about HMs, but ok, you do you, it's fine.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Nothing she has done has been caring. Everything has been self serving.

Trying to groom Hanah away from the lads, for example, is not 'caring' about Hanah... It's just getting another nom to support her, or at least to not be on her.

Ali saw weakness and exploited it.

I'm going to give Ali some credit and say that she felt sorry for Hanah's situation with the other girls in the house.

But, I do also think that she saw it as an opportunity to try and gain a number for her side.

It's a win win, and tbh something that I would like to think that I would try to do if I were in the house.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I don't automatically see the worst in people and i am positive about a lot of people, my wide range of posts here support that, I simply recognise the plays and behaviours in Ali.

Ali has groomed and manipulated her way through this entire series. It's who she is.

Imagine attempting to smear the speaker rather than talk about the point being made. This seems to be a really common thing in Ali fans.

Who's Ali groomed?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Beso

That's a very Ali thing to say.

Thank you I knew someone was going to say that

Look I don't want to get any more personal but I dislike the 'tone' vesavius often posts in, and some of the things they've said have wound me up and so it's absolutely best for everyone's sake that I just put vesavius on Ignore. I don't want to argue, I am sure vesavius doesn't want to argue and nobody wants to read two people sniping.

Sometimes two people clash and that's okay. I'd rather minimise the chance of that happening, that's all.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I am happy to talk to anyone as long as they can stick to talking about the HMs.

I am just not interested in petty point scoring against forum members. I don't take anything personally here I just dislike the white noise of deflection and petty insults. Honestly, some here seem to hate other FMs so much but I see this all as just part of the game. I don't dislike a person just because they see a HM differently this year... They will probably be agreeing with me in another one.

I am sorry that you can't just engage in this manner and just talk about HMs, but ok, you do you, it's fine.

I apologise for my reactions to your posts. It's a me issue and I take things too personally. I don't like some of the way your posts come across sometimes but you should be free to post how you like without me biting.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I'm going to give Ali some credit and say that she felt sorry for Hanah's situation with the other girls in the house.

But, I do also think that she saw it as an opportunity to try and gain a number for her side.

It's a win win, and tbh something that I would like to think that I would try to do if I were in the house.

Nah, she saw weakness and jumped on it in order to exploit it

That whole 'give her somewhere to land' conversation was exactly what Ali is about.. Cynical self serving game playing dressed up as compassion. The grasping for power from behind a shield of fake virtue.

I have been saying for days that Ali is empire building in there and this was just another example of her doing that. She is grooming others in order to manipulate their nom in order to protect herself, not because she on any level gives a **** about them.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I apologise for my reactions to your posts. It's a me issue and I take things too personally. I don't like some of the way your posts come across sometimes but you should be free to post how you like without me biting.

It's all good, no worries.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Nah, she saw weakness and jumped on it in order to exploit it

That whole 'give her somewhere to land' conversation was exactly what Ali is about.. Cynical self serving game playing dressed up as compassion. The grasping for power from behind a shield of fake virtue.

I have been saying for days that Ali is empire building in there and this was just another example of her doing that. She is grooming others in order to manipulate their nom in order to protect herself, not because she on any level gives a **** about them.

I don't believe that Ali is a heartless monster like you're making her sound.

Would she be my kind of person irl? I don't think so really, and I do agree with you that she's a big manipulator in the house.

But she must have some level of compassion towards other people's struggles, especially given her profession, that's why I think that Ali on some level cared about Hanah's situation last night.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I don't believe that Ali is a heartless monster like you're making her sound.

Would she be my kind of person irl? I don't think so really, and I do agree with you that she's a big manipulator in the house.

But she must have some level of compassion towards other people's struggles, especially given her profession, that's why I think that Ali on some level cared about Hanah's situation last night.

I have never used the terms heartless or monster, to be fair.

I am sure that she irl cares about things and people. But in that house I simply see her game and the way that she chooses to play it.... Othering, grooming, negative imaging, and manipulating are not qualities that I admire is all and I see her doing that constantly. The current situation with Hanah is no exception.

Her real life profession requires no compassion though I don't think. Forensic psychology isn't about that.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I have never used the terms heartless or monster, to be fair.

I am sure that she irl cares about things and people. But in that house I simply see her game and the way that she chooses to play it.... Othering, grooming, negative imaging, and manipulating are not qualities that I admire is all and I see her doing that constantly. The current situation with Hanah is no exception.

Her real life profession requires no compassion though I don't think. Forensic psychology isn't about that.

I would just imagine that most people that work in Forensic Psychology would have a basic level of empathy, but maybe I'm wrong tbf as I'm not an expert on this topic.

And I do largely agree with your points, I just do wonder if on the side did Ali also feel bad for Hanah a little bit.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

And I do largely agree with your points, I just do wonder if on the side did Ali also feel bad for Hanah a little bit.

Maybe, but that wasn't her motivation. She didn't give a **** about how Hanah felt until she had the opportunity to try and recruit her.

[FromBB8]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Maybe, but that wasn't her motivation. She didn't give a **** about how Hanah felt until she had the opportunity to try and recruit her.

I think the problem is we've seen before - I think it was on the highlights rather than the live feed - Ali say about bringing Hanah over from the other group. At that point there was no sign that she was struggling with female company or drifting away from the guys. It did seem like a gameplay move.

I can see why people would argue from a place of compassion yesterday, and I can see it myself if I take myself away from what has happened before. But the above is nagging at me, and I cannot help it doing so.

[Vanessa]

As if Hannah can be recruited. She does what she pleases

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

As if Hannah can be recruited. She does what she pleases

Hanah really isn't the independent-thinking boss bitch that she pretends to be. It's mainly bluster and posturing.