[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

But, I maintain... No one not already ideologically or culturally predisposed is watching a spicey episode of CBB and then going out to bash gays because it convinced them that was the OK thing to do.

I think it's been clear for a while now this conversation is not longer about Mickey Rouke.

Also, I have also seen even on this forum straights being called 'gross' and 'dirty breeders' and that seems to be perfectly acceptable by the majority of the 'progressive' mindset. I didn't see any on the Left here calling for them to be banned from the forum.

I don't recall seeing those posts or responding positively to them. That's bad too...?

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I think it's been clear for a while now this conversation is not longer about Mickey Rouke.

The conversation is about what we want it to be about and I am choosing to use Mickey as an example.

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don't recall seeing those posts or responding positively to them. That's bad too...?

I didn't say anyone responded positively to them. I said they were not called out and those that said it were not called to be banned from the forum. I wasn't talking specifically about you.

I am disappointed though that you missed me saying, "You are 100% correct. It should be called out and challenged. And if it was said on CBB it of course would be. Robustly and at great length. It could easily be argued that the conversation coming from a person saying those things and the mass rejection of that as an idea is actually a really valuable teaching point that would reach way beyond the show itself."

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

The conversation is about what we want it to be about and I am choosing to use Mickey as an example.

Okay? Well I'm done talking about Mickey so I am choosing to opt out of this conversation.

I didn't say anyone responded positively to them. I said they were not called out and those that said it were not called to be banned from the forum. I wasn't talking specifically about you.

Okay.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Okay? Well I'm done talking about Mickey so I am choosing to opt out of this conversation.

OK, let's not talk about CBB on a forum about CBB. Makes sense.

I feel that you are using that as an excuse to swerve the points actually being made, but you do you ofc.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Thanks for your reply. I totally get your point, but in another thread you openly question why that game promoting rape even exists and why the makers haven’t been investigated. So you can understand that there is a difference between a game in which the ability to do bad stuff exists (GTA) and a game which actively promotes doing bad stuff (the other game) and why one is not problematic in the way the other is. So there are complexities and levels which exist in society across all things where we say “that crosses the line”, and that has always existed.

To clarify, if someone was to say “I don’t agree with gay marriage, to be honest, I think marriage should be between a man and a woman” then I’m not calling for them to be punished for having that opinion. I disagree with it, but whatever.

If someone says “Gay people are disgusting, they’re after our children and their gross behaviour is disintegrating traditional values and it must be stopped”, well that’s another kind of thing altogether and that kind of all-too-common baiting by far-right paranoid Lawrence Fox type people should absolutely be challenged and called out for what it is: inciting hate.

I do 100% agree with you on this actually.

Because that kind of language is definitely inciting the weirdos in our society to act out their violent urges against a community that they don't like.

Basically I am with you on incitement.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Compiled the below in just 2 minutes, hope that helps. Multiple issues can exist at the same time.

Drag Queen Story Hour UK founder attacked in ‘homophobic hate crime’ just hours after proposing - link

Thugs wanted for vile homophobic hate crime after assaulting gay couple with plank of wood in Chadwell Heath, east London - link

Police release images of man after couple attacked in London Underground hate crime - link

Woman attacks man with glass bottle in suspected homophobic hate crime - link

Man sentenced for homophobic assault on Drag Race UK star - link

Couple beaten up in homophobic attack in Birmingham's Gay Village speak of ordeal - link

Nottingham: Man 'shaken and scared by homophobic attack' - link

Gay man beaten by youths in homophobic attack in Bournemouth - link

Clapham stabbing: Man sought after homophobic attack - link

That's awful.

I honestly can't believe that it has happened in Bournemouth too, I thought that they were a fairly liberal area.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I do 100% agree with you on this actually.

Because that kind of language is definitely inciting the weirdos in our society to act out their violent urges against a community that they don't like.

Basically I am with you on incitement.

It's also important to remember that it's not necessary to literally call for action to embolden people to take physical measures.

All humans need is the idea something is a threat to them, their loved ones, their way of life, and many will act accordingly. And LGBT have been framed as a threat throughout their existence.

- We've been framed as a threat to traditional family values (so did not have the same legal rights within relationships)

- We've been framed as a threat to public health (so could not give blood up until 2021 if we were sexually active - to the point where myself, in a 12-year monogamous relationship could not give blood but my friend who was straight and sleeping with a new girl every weekend could)

- We've been framed as a threat to the sanctity of marriage.

- We've been framed as a threat to children. (Lawrence Fox recently stated that the plus in LGBT+ was a symbol for pedophiles. It wasn't a direct call for action, but it was definitely posing LGBT people as a threat to peoples children.)

People don't need anyone to say "gays are gross, get 'em" they just need to imply gays are a threat, unfounded and without evidence or data. That's enough. Which is why not challenging or persecuting certain levels of hate speech is so dangerous.

I'm not talking about Mickey's 'I'm voting off the lesbian' or jokes made my comedians on stage. Context and intent matter hugely and no, nobody is going to watch Big Brother and see Mickey call JoJo a fag and then go and punch a lesbian, but there is a need for a certain level of 'freedom' allowed before people are reprimanded for what they say. It's the same with everything in society.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It's also important to remember that it's not necessary to literally call for action to embolden people to take physical measures.

All humans need is the idea something is a threat to them, their loved ones, their way of life, and many will act accordingly. And LGBT have been framed as a threat throughout their existence.

- We've been framed as a threat to traditional family values (so did not have the same legal rights within relationships)

- We've been framed as a threat to public health (so could not give blood up until 2021 if we were sexually active - to the point where myself, in a 12-year monogamous relationship could not give blood but my friend who was straight and sleeping with a new girl every weekend could)

- We've been framed as a threat to the sanctity of marriage.

- We've been framed as a threat to children. (Lawrence Fox recently stated that the plus in LGBT+ was a symbol for pedophiles. It wasn't a direct call for action, but it was definitely posing LGBT people as a threat to peoples children.)

People don't need anyone to say "gays are gross, get 'em" they just need to imply gays are a threat, unfounded and without evidence or data. That's enough. Which is why not challenging or persecuting certain levels of hate speech is so dangerous.

I'm not talking about Mickey's 'I'm voting off the lesbian' or jokes made my comedians on stage. Context and intent matter hugely and no, nobody is going to watch Big Brother and see Mickey call JoJo a fag and then go and punch a lesbian, but there is a need for a certain level of 'freedom' allowed before people are reprimanded for what they say. It's the same with everything in society.

Fair points tbf, and I can agree with most of it.

And just to go to Lawrence Fox for a minute, how anybody agrees with anything that this dude says is probably the biggest mystery in Politics at the moment.

The guy makes Trump and Andrew Tate seem reasonable imo, and that takes some doing.