[Lee.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But it's a non-sentient being, it cannot feel anything, a fetus or an embryo is not a human being and should not be considered one

By the time a pregnant mother is tested for Downs Syndrome, her baby IS very much a living being though. It has a heart beat and moves, the movements which can be felt inside her. I don't agree with abortion personally anyway, but I don't understand how a mother can choose to have her baby removed from her body ater she has felt those first few fluttery movements and listened to his or her heartbeat. I just couldn't bear it

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by ~Kerry~

To turn the subject on it's head a little, how many of you who said you wouldn't terminate would adopt or offer a child with Downs a home?

I don't think I could look after any children that well, nevermind one that would require extra care. Maybe if I grew more confident in the future then yes but I'd leave it to the families that could give the kids a better life.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by Blitzen

This. The child cannot even feel pain until at least 5 weeks in. It would also have no chance of surviving and in no way can be considered a human.

Abortion is not murder when all your getting rid of is a fertilised cell.

It's not just a cell though.. woman is 3 -5 months pregnant when the Downs test is done

[Niall]

Originally Posted by happyland

It's not just a cell though.. woman is 3 -5 months pregnant when the Downs test is done

I was on about the earlier stages of pregnancy.

But back on topic, those who have down syndrome can actually be regular normal people. It just depends on the degree of down syndrome you have which can be very widely varying. We were discussing this in R.S the other day

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But it's a non-sentient being, it cannot feel anything, a fetus or an embryo is not a human being and should not be considered one

You can just 'announce' that standard but it can't become a defining definition for what is or is not a 'human being'.
Look at it this way:
- It certainly can 'feel' something somehow in the sense it most definitely reacts or responds to outside 'stimuli' (going with that word).

- Okay, but if we mean it cannot register and respond to pain that doesn't make one a living human or not. We might refer to Leprosy patients or for that matter any number in hospitals tonight sedated or we could even take an example of a paraplegic.. we don't suppose their body from the neck down is anything but a valuable living human body.

- 'Sentience' is interesting though its unhelpful in defining a human being in this sense (we are attempting) because it is more a philosophical concept than its tangible.
Here again, we could point to many people in our town who are in comas, stages of dementia, severe brain damage and in some sense are incapable of being 'aware' of pain and pleasure (physical or emotional or spiritual etc). Are they anything less than human beings?
For that matter we might wonder - is a child less 'sentient' than an adult and therefore 'less human'?

- Speaking of definition there is something where people say 'Its a FETUS not a BABY'. Right.
The word 'Fetus' is a soft of 'stage term'. We say 'Infants' or 'Teenagers'. The word 'Fetus' is one of those words. It would be like saying "Its a Prepubescent not a Fetus!'.

- but all of these things together don't even really dictate or change or mitigate calling an 'unborn person' or 'fetus' or 'water baby' anything but a 'human being'.
That's not making a political statement or anything. I could be 100% for aborting everyone but I still have no choice but to call this a 'Human Being'. It is a 'Being'.
Its not a rodent being, animal being, outer-space being. I can't get around it when it comes to a defining description.

I don't get involved in these 'abortion' debates too often. I rarely discuss it. I find it horrifying or 'bad' regardless of any political or religious views I ever had. Nobody should ever 'want' an abortion no matter what.
OK,
but here is actually how I look at this sometimes and just bear with the unusual angle:
Let's completely forget this idea of it being a human being or not. Say it is not. We all agree.
OK.
Just imagine the amazing headlines next month: Scientists find LIFE FORMS on meteors!!!
In a stunning discovery there is a tiny sort of microscopic inorganic 'spore' found on a rock in the Amazon.
To the astonishment it was seen to transform into some organic 'drip'. After months of intense science the drip (fed simple sugars) began to transfer DNA coding from a researchers skin cells!!!
Under exact circumstances and work the 'blob' began mimicking a 'humanoid shape' blood vessels...
... a year later the alien life-form was a living breathing alien being!!!

Scientists, politicians, social workers cannot express the astonishing implications of this!
BILLIONS would be spent. Money and Time! Every one of our greatest minds and top geniuses would be marshaled to invest in this!
Almost immediately the meteorites would become nothing short of the most valuable matter on Earth!
The region the original 'dust spores' were found is now nothing short of a trillion dollar UN protected security zone with 10,000 agents spending 1000s of hours literally going through blades of grass with a fine-tooth comb!
Men would die for this.
Governments who mishandled the 'life form issue' may be defeated over this issue!
hell, some religion would start. Scientologists would become respectable FFS!
The 'alien spore', if found, would have the most astonishing security, protection.. again, every military defense, top-secret labs, billion dollars care facility, thousands of researchers in every sanitary protection, locked rooms ventilated in exact %s of air and heat etc.

Do you see this now?
EVEN IF the fetus were totally agreed upon as something 'inhuman' it is nothing short of amazing that with some simple science it can turn into a human being.
Something that can turn into a sentient human being by just adding some simple common substances?
To me and (seen in example) most people that is a highly valuable 'object' in itself.
Go ahead and suppose it isn't a human being. That, by simply NOT interfering and throwing some salt, sugar and water in it for a few month it becomes a human being?
Priceless!

[Jords]

They dont have much of a life, and it would be a lot of hard work.
I dont like the idea of abortion, but yes I would.

[Barbie]

Not 100% sure where i stand on this,

I think for a first child, its going to be tough and a downs baby tougher. A second child i think i'd be more prepared to take on a downs child. If i struggled i couldn't give the baby up for adoption or put the baby through my failures. So i think i would abort if it was my first baby. Hard to say because im not in the situation.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by ~Kerry~

When I was pregnant I refused the Downs test. I accepted what will be will be. Fate will decide what happens. My OH wanted me to have it though but as the test back then ran a high risk of miscarriage I said no

This. If I was pregnant I would refuse the Down Syndrome test as well. Especially if there is a risk of a miscarriage. What will be will be. I would love my child no matter what. My godparent has a downs syndrome child. Well he's like 16/17 now. But he is lovely! There are worse things that could happen.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I dont agree with that view at all, the father and the mother should have equal say over the fate of their child imo

This. However it's the woman's body who is carrying the baby. Therefore she will make the final decision. If it was the other way around and men were carrying a baby then they would have the final say.

[Kerry]

Rather irrelevant of a serious subject but the Emmerdale character has now decided to keep her Downs baby. It will be interesting to see how the story pans out. Then again, they did a similar storyline in EE didn't they with Billy's daughter Janet. However they soon ferreted her away to live with her mother ...... (I do know they can't use babies/toddlers beyond certain work hours but they didn't really need to write her character out??)

[heretoday]

I had a termination 7 years ago for similar reasons and it was a VERY difficult decision to make. I found out at 17 weeks that my baby had severe spina bifida and fluid on the brain. I got a 2nd opinion and spoke to staff at Alder Hey who work with children affected by neural tube defects to try and help me with my decision. I was told my baby would have no quality of life, it would be paralysed and have bowel and bladder incontinence as well as problems with the brain.

At 18 weeks 6 days I was induced and gave birth to a sleeping daughter, my first child with my husband of just 4 months, and a very much wanted baby. It was very very sad and traumatic and it took me a long time to come to terms with.

All I can say is, what happened to me has changed me as a person into a much more compassionate and non-judgemental soul, and I am thankful for this. My husband and I never survived the year following this (and a move overseas) but I now have two healthy boys thanks to a prescription of high strength folic acid in both pregnancies.

I don't know what I would have done if it had been Down's Syndrome, but I don't envy anyone parent who finds themself in a position of trying to do what they believe is best for the child, the parents and other siblings.

[Claymores]

that is a wow of a post heretoday and sorry for your loss. A very great post

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by heretoday

I had a termination 7 years ago for similar reasons and it was a VERY difficult decision to make. I found out at 17 weeks that my baby had severe spina bifida and fluid on the brain. I got a 2nd opinion and spoke to staff at Alder Hey who work with children affected by neural tube defects to try and help me with my decision. I was told my baby would have no quality of life, it would be paralysed and have bowel and bladder incontinence as well as problems with the brain.

At 18 weeks 6 days I was induced and gave birth to a sleeping daughter, my first child with my husband of just 4 months, and a very much wanted baby. It was very very sad and traumatic and it took me a long time to come to terms with.

All I can say is, what happened to me has changed me as a person into a much more compassionate and non-judgemental soul, and I am thankful for this. My husband and I never survived the year following this (and a move overseas) but I now have two healthy boys thanks to a prescription of high strength folic acid in both pregnancies.

I don't know what I would have done if it had been Down's Syndrome, but I don't envy anyone parent who finds themself in a position of trying to do what they believe is best for the child, the parents and other siblings.

So sorry about your little girl and also the break up. It must have been devastating

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Scott

i often do

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Jords

They dont have much of a life, and it would be a lot of hard work.
I dont like the idea of abortion, but yes I would.

rofl You make them sound like Dead Hamsters.

The babies don't have much life, but when they grow up they're a pocket full of sunshine.

...Well sometimes.

My mate has Down Syndrome and he's abit..awkward at times but you know.

Billy's Daughter in EastEnders, Now she's lifeless so I see what you mean.

[Beastie]

It all depends how severe Downs Syndrome is. Look at Becky on Glee. She is a little actress who has Downs Syndrome. They would get as good as a quality life like the rest of us. Just that for them it would be a bit harder. However they are not worth terminating. Plenty of children who go to these special schools seems happy with themselves. They feel sh!t when ordinary people bully them. However anyone can get bullied.

[abbey97]

No, it shouldn't matter if they have down syndrome, it's still your baby!

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by abbey97

No, it shouldn't matter if they have down syndrome, it's still your baby!

But if you don't want you're baby then you don't have to have it, if it's like handicap.

If you don't want it because your a young ******ing chavy tart who couldn't afford free contraception, then tough you're keeping it.

But if you can't deal with a retarded baby then, there's nothing you can do, you could always put it up for adoption though.

[Kerry]

Patrick whats got into you tonight, seriously?

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by ~Kerry~

Patrick whats got into you tonight, seriously?

Well I had a talk with UKTurtle and he sort of showed me the light it was like seeing Jesus.

So basically I've calmed down alot now and I'm not as aggressive towards people as I apparently once was constantly.

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Well I had a talk with UKTurtle and he sort of showed me the light it was like seeing Jesus.

So basically I've calmed down alot now and I'm not as aggressive towards people as I apparently once was constantly.

OK. Just you seem edgy tonight. Not yourself anyway

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by ~Kerry~

OK. Just you seem edgy tonight. Not yourself anyway

Is that bad?

[Patrick]

I'm worried now.

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Is that bad?

Nothing to do with me. Just an observation.

[Beastie]

Yeah I prefer the more fun Patrick. It gets bugging when Paddy get aggressive!