[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Ok your mentions of tinfoils hats and accusations of being patronising in your last two posts are enough.
I have my opinions and you have yours that wont change.(i havent resorted to trying to belittle yours)
Peace miss gypsy.

What about this?

Originally Posted by bobnot

The sheeple will say otherwise of course.

It seemed to me that you were calling people sheep who didn't agree with your point of view.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by arista

Sure No worse than the President Murdering Millions
with Drones that kill children near the targets

But I think that's a different issue, so just because that happens, it doesn't make it ok for their spying methods to be revealed.

If the american people have issue with the drone strikes, they should protest against them and not vote for Obamas party next time.

Whistle blowers have always played an important role in attempting to curb the overreaching powers of government. Benjamin Franklin said “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I think that sums it up quite nicely.

Until governments do everything in their powers to care for every single person in the country, then spying on citizens to prevent a terrorist attack every 10-15 years is seriously misguided.

More people die of hunger each year, than are at any kind of risk from a terror attack. It's a completely irrational reaction.

[arista]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But I think that's a different issue, so just because that happens, it doesn't make it ok for their spying methods to be revealed.

If the american people have issue with the drone strikes, they should protest against them and not vote for Obamas party next time.

They Do Protest In America , South America
and the World.



Its his last term in power
He can kill who he wants now


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...tion-user-data

Look at this Microsoft giving People Private Data to the NSA in America.

Fecking Poxy Bill Gates.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But I think that's a different issue, so just because that happens, it doesn't make it ok for their spying methods to be revealed.

If the american people have issue with the drone strikes, they should protest against them and not vote for Obamas party next time.

But their spying methods are against the law they have no right to be doing that. They are hounding a man because he exposed the fact they were breaking international law.
What they have done is not ok nor would a change of president change what they do.

They are murdering and torturing people on a huge scale Mr Snowden isnt.
Which is the lesser of the evils?
damn it i replied again.

[arista]

{files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate
the scale of co-operation between Silicon Valley
and the intelligence agencies over the last three years.
They also shed new light on the workings of
the top-secret Prism program,
which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last month.}

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...tion-user-data

[billy123]

It drives me up the ****ing wall when people try to justify the invasion of privacy and the basic human rights of a person in the name of the imaginary war on terror.

[arista]

Originally Posted by bobnot

It drives me up the ****ing wall when people try to justify the invasion of privacy and the basic human rights of a person in the name of the imaginary war on terror.

Yes The War is America making it with Drone
Attacks all over the World.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes The War is America making it with Drone
Attacks all over the World.

The definition of terror:
Violence committed or threatened by a group to intimidate or coerce a population, as for military or political purposes.

Thats what drone attacks do.
The US need to stop and the UK need to get their tongue out of their arses.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Whistle blowers have always played an important role in attempting to curb the overreaching powers of government. Benjamin Franklin said “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I think that sums it up quite nicely.

Until governments do everything in their powers to care for every single person in the country, then spying on citizens to prevent a terrorist attack every 10-15 years is seriously misguided.

More people die of hunger each year, than are at any kind of risk from a terror attack. It's a completely irrational reaction.

I'm not against whistle blowers. I agree they play an important role. And I think the government's interest is it's own survival and not the care of every citizen. But I do think in most cases they try to do the most good.

And the fact people are dying of hunger when other countries have more than enough is a sign that the system is far from perfect. But it's the only one we have. And hungry people can't eat Snowden's interviews.

Maybe I'm not understanding sometime but I wasn't at all shocked by the stuff Snowden came out with, I expected that type of stuff to be going on. Maybe I'm missing something with story

Originally Posted by arista

They Do Protest In America , South America
and the World.



Its his last term in power
He can kill who he wants now


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...tion-user-data

Look at this Microsoft giving People Private Data to the NSA in America.

Fecking Poxy Bill Gates.

I'm not surprised though, companies give our info to whoever pays them. And I guess if you're a government you could try get it off them for free.

Originally Posted by bobnot

But their spying methods are against the law they have no right to be doing that. They are hounding a man because he exposed the fact they were breaking international law.
What they have done is not ok nor would a change of president change what they do.

They are murdering and torturing people on a huge scale Mr Snowden isnt.
Which is the lesser of the evils?
damn it i replied again.

But I disagree that their spying methods are against the law. The spy organisation is operating on the front line, the law hasn't caught up with the internet yet.

And I don't see it as a choice to agree with torture or agree with thinking what Snowden did was right.

I don't see the CIA as an evil organisation, and I don't see the American government as such either. But I do see what Snowden did as something that could have harmed his own country.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

It drives me up the ****ing wall when people try to justify the invasion of privacy and the basic human rights of a person in the name of the imaginary war on terror.

But what's the alternative. Don't monitor what people are doing on the net?

[billy123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But what's the alternative. Don't monitor what people are doing on the net?

They cant treat people like terrorists just to catch the tiny tiny few that are.

Trillions are spent on "The war on terror" despite the facts.


– You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack

– You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack

— You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane

— You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack

–You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack

— You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack

– You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack

–You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack

–You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack

–You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist

–You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack

– You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/04...han-terrorism/

Imagine if that money was spent on the top two of that list.

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I'm not against whistle blowers. I agree they play an important role. And I think the government's interest is it's own survival and not the care of every citizen. But I do think in most cases they try to do the most good.

And the fact people are dying of hunger when other countries have more than enough is a sign that the system is far from perfect. But it's the only one we have. And hungry people can't eat Snowden's interviews.

Maybe I'm not understanding sometime but I wasn't at all shocked by the stuff Snowden came out with, I expected that type of stuff to be going on. Maybe I'm missing something with story

You're not misunderstanding anything at all, you just have a different perspective on the situation, and to be honest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We just view things differently.

I personally, would not swap freedom for security, but I only have words because whether we like it or not, that's exactly the system that we all live by. We're all being spied on regardless of how we feel about it, and the fact you weren't shocked by it, just shows exactly where civilisation is today..

I really love the ideals of democracy set out by the founders (barring the odd slave or two, but whatchagonnadoo?), but the America that exists today, is about as far away from that ideal as you could get.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is constantly being affronted by the government, and the government in place at the moment is about as liberal as it gets (they really aren't liberal, but in fact at best a centrist/centre right government).

When governments have powers to do what they like, then that's far more dangerous to the long term well being of the population, than a couple of planes being flown into buildings once in a while.

The dangers we all face by terrorism are minuscule compared to the massive over reach that has taken place ever since. There is no right or wrong on this issue, you've just reached a different conclusion from the same information.

Dying as a free man just seems so much more appealing to me, than living in the materialisation of 1984.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

They cant treat people like terrorists just to catch the tiny tiny few that are.

Trillions are spent on "The war on terror" despite the facts.


– You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack

– You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack

— You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane

— You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack

–You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack

— You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack

– You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack

–You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack

–You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack

–You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist

–You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack

– You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/04...han-terrorism/

Imagine if that money was spent on the top two of that list.

But spying on a person is different from treating them like a terrorist.

I don't think if american stopped spending money on defence that it would go into fighting illness. The US is not some altruistic country, it's a business.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But spying on a person is different from treating them like a terrorist.

I don't think if american stopped spending money on defence that it would go into fighting illness. The US is not some altruistic country, it's a business.

Then what is wrong in a citizen spying on its elected goverment if its ok for an elected goverment to spy on its citizens?

Nobody suggested the money would be spent on those things.

I feel sad that we have reached a point where people dont object to their rights being infringed.

Jesus has a way of putting it far more politely than i can.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

You're not misunderstanding anything at all, you just have a different perspective on the situation, and to be honest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We just view things differently.

I personally, would not swap freedom for security, but I only have words because whether we like it or not, that's exactly the system that we all live by. We're all being spied on regardless of how we feel about it, and the fact you weren't shocked by it, just shows exactly where civilisation is today..

I really love the ideals of democracy set out by the founders (barring the odd slave or two, but whatchagonnadoo?), but the America that exists today, is about as far away from that ideal as you could get.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is constantly being affronted by the government, and the government in place at the moment is about as liberal as it gets (they really aren't liberal, but in fact at best a centrist/centre right government).

When governments have powers to do what they like, then that's far more dangerous to the long term well being of the population, than a couple of planes being flown into buildings once in a while.

The dangers we all face by terrorism are minuscule compared to the massive over reach that has taken place ever since. There is no right or wrong on this issue, you've just reached a different conclusion from the same information.

Dying as a free man just seems so much more appealing to me, than living in the materialisation of 1984.

I think it was on QI that they mentioned that one of the reasons america was competitive in manufacturing was because of the fact that prisoners there are used as slave labour. So I think the place exists at a cost, I'm not naive, the reality of the country is that's unforgiving and it's paranoid, but it also creates a lot of beauty.

But yea I don't see another way for their government to act other than to spy on people. If they don't plan for and prepare against worst case scenarios, I think the country would be overrun by crazy fundamentalists. It could be that the reasons we are so much less likely to die from them, is because the amount being spent is working.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Then what is wrong in a citizen spying on its elected goverment if its ok for an elected goverment to spy on its citizens?

Nobody suggested the money would be spent on those things.

I feel sad that we have reached a point where people dont object to their rights being infringed.

Jesus has a way of putting it far more politely than i can.

But what rights are being infringed? If an organisation can sift through all the online info and then figure out who is against their country, what is so wrong with that?

And I've no objection with people monitoring the activities of government. But a government wouldn't be able to function if everything they had to do was cleared by some court. I think it's a necessity that they're able to go above the law if need be.

[Novo]

Comrades

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I think it was on QI that they mentioned that one of the reasons america was competitive in manufacturing was because of the fact that prisoners there are used as slave labour. So I think the place exists at a cost, I'm not naive, the reality of the country is that's unforgiving and it's paranoid, but it also creates a lot of beauty.

But yea I don't see another way for their government to act other than to spy on people. If they don't plan for and prepare against worst case scenarios, I think the country would be overrun by crazy fundamentalists. It could be that the reasons we are so much less likely to die from them, is because the amount being spent is working.

Well those prisons are run by private corporations, not the state, which means they have shareholders and lobbyists. That's why they are the country that imprisons more of it's own citizens than nearly any other country on earth. Prisons are big business, which in itself is a pretty disgusting thing in my opinion. There is one state that has a 3 strikes and you're out rule, which means if you are convicted of any number of offences 3 times, you'll get a mandatory life sentence. Possession of marijuana 3 times equals a life sentence. Yet the prisons have lobbyists paying money to people in government to prevent these laws from being changed. The system is rigged massively.

America spends more on defence than the next 13 countries below them. Combined. Besides, the Bush government knew all about OBL's plot, they just didn't take it seriously enough. That was without all the currently fashionable spying and wiretapping. You can still defend the country, just without having to watch every individual in order to do so.

[Nedusa]

"The owners of this country know the truth: It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Well those prisons are run by private corporations, not the state, which means they have shareholders and lobbyists. That's why they are the country that imprisons more of it's own citizens than nearly any other country on earth. Prisons are big business, which in itself is a pretty disgusting thing in my opinion. There is one state that has a 3 strikes and you're out rule, which means if you are convicted of any number of offences 3 times, you'll get a mandatory life sentence. Possession of marijuana 3 times equals a life sentence. Yet the prisons have lobbyists paying money to people in government to prevent these laws from being changed. The system is rigged massively.

America spends more on defence than the next 13 countries below them. Combined. Besides, the Bush government knew all about OBL's plot, they just didn't take it seriously enough. That was without all the currently fashionable spying and wiretapping. You can still defend the country, just without having to watch every individual in order to do so.

I agree that the system is rigged against people who chose to not live by the society's laws. edit: I guess a flaw might be the way an organisation who's main interest is profit and punishment is in control.

And I think America underestimated how radical and insane these people who hate them are. I don't think America will make the same mistake again.

Originally Posted by Nedusa

"The owners of this country know the truth: It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin.

That's the thing this Snowden guy must have been dreaming. He seemed to not realise what his own country was up to, maybe he believed in some dreamland america. And he went and joined two spy organisations and was shocked to find out that they spied on people

[arista]

SkyNewHD Live

Ed is asking Russia for Temp. Stay Visa
until he can get to South America in a safe way.
He fears American CIA will Kill him.

[arista]

Snowden 'Allowed To Leave Moscow Airport'


http://news.sky.com/story/1119814/sn...moscow-airport


Meaning he can move from the Airport
into Russia
while 3 months paper works could be worked out

[arista]

He has left the airport
around 90mins ago.

Wikileaks Org are helping him go to a Secret Location
in Russia.

Ref : FoxNewsHD, SkyNewsHD , BBC, CNN

[Z]

I'm convinced he'll end up being assassinated quietly many years down the line when he thinks the heat has been called off on him. The best way for him to ensure his own security is to keep his name in the media. The USA are not just going to let the matter drop.