[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ben

I stand by my opinions and from the fact there is no concrete evidence, whether people agree or not. I place more importance on a new life over a glass of wine.

But yes, let's leave it.

Good, I stand by mine too.
I don't understand there is no concrete evidence of what?....
Who doesn't place more importance on the child?
You're starting to sound a bit sanctimonious now ben.

[Benjamin]

Oh, give it a rest now. You just said we'd leave it at that, but no, you have to have the last word and try start it up again. I have said what I needed to, I don't need to keep trying justifying my opinions to you or anyone even if I do share them on here, and I don't appreciate you keeping on about my opinions, I'm not keeping on about yours. And me sanctimonious, because I place a higher regard for an unborn child over a glass of wine? If you feel like that maybe you have issues with feeling morally inferior?

So let's agree to do what you suggested and leave it at this shall we, or is that beyond you currently?

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

said it all for me!

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Roy Mars III

Batman can do whatever he wants

its not batman it was barman

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

..To be honest that was my first thoughts as well Matt, unless she was 'obviously under the influence' when she tried to order the glass of wine..or then went on to order a second/third etc then it wasn't his judgement to make on one glass of wine...but I think it's probably a case of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' because whether it should be the case or not, people do judge on pregnant woman smoking/drinking..I remember myself once seeing a heavily pregnant young lady smoking in the street and it just looked so wrong and I didn't feel comfortable with it at all..so it does attract judgement...

..if he had served her the wine, he could have felt that other customers in the bar wouldn't feel comfortable to be there and that it would cause them to 'judge' the bar itself as somewhere they would stop going to and that might have had a bearing on his decision....and yes, he could maybe have discreetly voiced his concerns to her and said that he would serve her this one glass of wine but only one because of how he felt...but I think he was quite new and we don't all always do 'the right thing'....so he made a decision and in doing that he upset one customer, perhaps he thought a different decision could have possibly upset much more..so right or wrong, I'm not sure I want to criticise or judge him either...maybe just a lack of communication all round but I'm not sure why she felt a need to talk to the media rather than to leave it with the communications and apologies she got from the establishment owners....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No, It's called adhering to governmental guidelines which (once again) state that 1 125ml measure of wine per week has never been found to have any adverse effect on an unborn child.
I can't copy and paste but that is the information I've seen.
We all have our own opinions though, let's leave it.

Right, and so the obvious thing to do is to risk becoming the first case of evidence that 125ml once a week can do harm.

That's the point here, really. "No evidence so far" doesn't mean it's impossible, just that there are no documented cases. Taking that risk is entirely up to the woman herself (although as I said I find needless risk taking with children, whether they're born yet or not, utterly selfish) - the decision not to be involved in it is, and should rightfully be, down to the person being asked to provide the alcohol.

There is a very slim chance that drinking a small amount is risking harm when pregnant, documented cases or not. Alcohol enters the bloodstream and alters brain chemistry (even small amounts) - an unborn baby directly shares it's mothers blood supply via the umbilical cord - therefore that alcohol may enter the child's bloodstream. Just because there's "no evidence yet"... It still doesn't sound like a particularly clever plan.

There is NO risk that NOT drinking is harmful. It's a no brainer.

I enjoy a drink every now and then, but honestly, if someone told me tomorrow that I can never have another sip so long as I live or risk (no matter how small) the health of my children, I'd really not be that bothered. I'd never so much as glance at the stuff again. What's 9 months?? Seriously! How about just, for less than one year, giving it a miss just incase?

I'd also add that if I was this young lad, I'd be informing the bar manager that I would still refuse service to pregnant women. If that cost me the job, so be it. A minimum wage is not worth compromising your morals.

[Ninastar]

^ well said.

[Z]

I doubt he's actually been given into trouble - the woman's turned it into national news so of course the bar has to be seen to be "doing something". I cannot understand those of you who are calling the barman an idiot. It's not like he thought "I don't know very much about pregnancy so just to be safe I'm going to refuse her service", rather he thought "it is common knowledge that pregnant women should not be drinking, smoking or taking drugs because it can seriously damage the unborn foetus - I don't want that on my conscience so I'm not going to serve her."

To put it another way - no good can possibly come from drinking wine while you're pregnant. It might not have any adverse effects on the child if you're only having the odd one every once in a while like this woman has been doing, but the child is getting its nutrients from what you're putting into your body and I know that I've heard lots of stories about the negative impacts of alcohol on newborns and absolutely none about the positives.

[Kyle]

I love Britain, it's one of the best countries in the world in my opinion but why is it so deeply rooted in our psyche that we have to abuse alcohol? And whenever someone suggests knocking it on the head for even a short while they look at you like you've walked into their house and pissed on their kids.

[Ammi]

..oh, I should also have said, there are judgements made in bars..some have bouncers on the door and I've heard of times that they may not let a big group of male youths in and those youths may not have actually been drinking much but they are obviously not comfortable doing that..and yet they may let a big group of young females in on say a hen night, who have obviously been drinking a lot...?..it's their call to make, they have a sign I think that says 'we have the right to refuse ..etc...' and they don't have to give a reason, just things they're not comfortable with....

..if I was to cast a judgement on this woman, it wouldn't be that she had a glass of wine occasionally, it would be that the letter of apology from the bar and I suspect any communications with them seemed perfectly polite and understanding and to me should have appeased her, mistakes are made if indeed she felt it wrong and understanding of her embarrassment by the bar owners was shown but it seems to me in her actions of going to the media, it's a bit of 'no one tells me what to do, how very dare they..outrageous...'..but yeah, that's just my thoughts on it...

[Suze]

I can't believe the woman has made such a song and dance over being refused the glass of wine unless she is an attention seeker. It doesn't really matter much who was in the right or wrong, but that is the barman's job to serve customers and if he refuses for whatever reasons, surely that is his prerogative in his job. It was only a glass of wine though, so why was she getting so upset about it, that's what I can't figure? Go get a glass of wine elsewhere if she needs it so much, a glass of water surely would have sufficed in the meantime with her meal.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..oh, I should also have said, there are judgements made in bars..some have bouncers on the door and I've heard of times that they may not let a big group of male youths in and those youths may not have actually been drinking much but they are obviously not comfortable doing that..and yet they may let a big group of young females in on say a hen night, who have obviously been drinking a lot...?..it's their call to make, they have a sign I think that says 'we have the right to refuse ..etc...' and they don't have to give a reason, just things they're not comfortable with....

..if I was to cast a judgement on this woman, it wouldn't be that she had a glass of wine occasionally, it would be that the letter of apology from the bar and I suspect any communications with them seemed perfectly polite and understanding and to me should have appeased her, mistakes are made if indeed she felt it wrong and understanding of her embarrassment by the bar owners was shown but it seems to me in her actions of going to the media, it's a bit of 'no one tells me what to do, how very dare they..outrageous...'..but yeah, that's just my thoughts on it...

Exactly, I don't understand people saying he had "no right" to turn her away. It's not a government service, it's not a universal human right to be served in a bar, it's a private establishment. The person serving has as much "right" to turn her away as I have the right to turn anyone I want to away from my own front door. Like you say; many bars have things like dress codes, age requirements (other than 18 - there are over 21's / over 25's / over 30's bars)... all sorts of reasons that people are turned away. This woman is just stropping because she feels like she's been "wronged" or "belittled".

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..oh, I should also have said, there are judgements made in bars..some have bouncers on the door and I've heard of times that they may not let a big group of male youths in and those youths may not have actually been drinking much but they are obviously not comfortable doing that..and yet they may let a big group of young females in on say a hen night, who have obviously been drinking a lot...?..it's their call to make, they have a sign I think that says 'we have the right to refuse ..etc...' and they don't have to give a reason, just things they're not comfortable with....

..if I was to cast a judgement on this woman, it wouldn't be that she had a glass of wine occasionally, it would be that the letter of apology from the bar and I suspect any communications with them seemed perfectly polite and understanding and to me should have appeased her, mistakes are made if indeed she felt it wrong and understanding of her embarrassment by the bar owners was shown but it seems to me in her actions of going to the media, it's a bit of 'no one tells me what to do, how very dare they..outrageous...'..but yeah, that's just my thoughts on it...

For me, this post sums all up perfectly. I still lean more to the Barman's side on this matter.

I talked a fair bit last night and this morning to family who have had children since obviously being a man I don't have to go through all that.
Every single one of them said, from the time they knew they were pregnant they never touched alcohol until after the Baby was born.
They all agreed with the barman.

[Ammi]

..oh I should have also said..(final word..)..with females that ‘maternal instinct’ doesn’t just happen after birth, it happens as soon as she becomes pregnant and the instinct to protect her unborn child..(for most people..) and I’m not saying that she wanted to harm her child in any way, I’m sure that she didn’t and genuinely felt and possibly researched that a glass of wine once or twice a week was perfectly fine and would rather maybe have that in a social situation like a bar, rather than, say, alone in her own home..I’m sure that woman didn’t think she was doing anything harmful at all..and maybe she wasn’t..?...there is no ‘absolute proof’...but I can also not understand anyone or any mother specifically laying criticism of someone who was just acting in her own child’s interest because after all isn’t this about the child and a decision that barman felt he wanted to make, whether it be over cautious perhaps or not..most mothers would appreciate the thought behind it as he was only acting to protect her child....it’s not something I would personally dispute if anything similar happened to me...

..anyway, there's nothing really else much for me to say...

[thesheriff443]

just to add, if the woman was in early pregnancy and it did not show, she could be legless and the barman would still be serving her unaware she was pregnant, if a woman wants to drink while pregnant there is no law that says she cant!

[RichardG]

Whether his decision to do as he did was right or wrong, i'm sure he meant well for her when he refused the alcohol. I don't understand why she went running to the news about it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

just to add, if the woman was in early pregnancy and it did not show, she could be legless and the barman would still be serving her unaware she was pregnant, if a woman wants to drink while pregnant there is no law that says she cant!

..there is isn't any law to say that she or any other woman can't drink while pregnant..as much or as often as they want to...she had an absolute right to order that glass of wine..he also had an absolute right to refuse to serve her though if he didn't feel comfortable with that, which is what he did..I think if anything what this questions is an employee's right to use their own judgement, which I think for me is more important...

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..there is isn't any law to say that she or any other woman can't drink while pregnant..as much or as often as they want to...she had an absolute right to order that glass of wine..he also had an absolute right to refuse to serve her though if he didn't feel comfortable with that, which is what he did..I think if anything what this questions is an employee's right to use their own judgement, which I think for me is more important...

so should someone working in a fast food outlet refuse to serve someone who is overweight because he is not comfortable with it?, the answer is no!

his job is to serve and not decide what is right or wrong!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..oh I should have also said..(final word..)..with females that ‘maternal instinct’ doesn’t just happen after birth, it happens as soon as she becomes pregnant and the instinct to protect her unborn child..(for most people..) and I’m not saying that she wanted to harm her child in any way, I’m sure that she didn’t and genuinely felt and possibly researched that a glass of wine once or twice a week was perfectly fine and would rather maybe have that in a social situation like a bar, rather than, say, alone in her own home..I’m sure that woman didn’t think she was doing anything harmful at all..and maybe she wasn’t..?...there is no ‘absolute proof’...but I can also not understand anyone or any mother specifically laying criticism of someone who was just acting in her own child’s interest because after all isn’t this about the child and a decision that barman felt he wanted to make, whether it be over cautious perhaps or not..most mothers would appreciate the thought behind it as he was only acting to protect her child....it’s not something I would personally dispute if anything similar happened to me...

..anyway, there's nothing really else much for me to say...

Agree and if she's believed in the article it sounds like she's more concious about her babies health than a lot of people (perhaps even overly so)

She added: 'Throughout my pregnancy I have taken good care of myself and made the best choices for my baby. I eat five portions of fruit and vegetables a day and make a fresh carrot, ginger and apple juice every morning.

'I don’t even use normal deodorant because I am concerned about using environmentally friendly and ethical products.

'I have read numerous articles about the effects of drinking alcohol when pregnant and I believe one small glass of wine once a week is not harmful to me or my baby.

'I had no alcohol during first 12 weeks of pregnancy apart from one glass of bubbly and one wine in that 12 week period and then, at most one glass a week, but not every week.

Think it's a bit unfair for people to say she's gambling with the health of her child or whatever, if you really want to go down that road of what might harm a baby, despite there being no evidence, I'm sure you would have to cut out a huge amount of things and enforce a ridiculously strict diet and lifestyle that would be completely unreasonable to adhere to

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

so should someone working in a fast food outlet refuse to serve someone who is overweight because he is not comfortable with it?, the answer is no!

his job is to serve and not decide what is right or wrong!

..his ‘job’ was to do his job which involved serving customers drinks, which he did..in that job or indeed any other job we’re often required to use our own judgement in situations, which he also did on this occasion, I don't think it's in question that he did his job...whether it was an ‘over cautious’ judgement or not...well, there is a saying...'best to err on the side of caution than the other way round..' and especially on something which you might then feel any personal responsibility if you’re judgement was wrong....I think he did his job in the best he knew how and unfortunately it meant that he upset a customer, which the bar apologised for...there is no ‘perfect world’ and definitely not in a workplace...

[Cherie]

Storm in a tea cup this which should never had made the news. I can see both sides really.

Interesting article here.
http://www.babble.com/pregnancy/six-...egnancy-myths/

[Tom4784]

This whole thing says more about her then it does him. She seems irresponsible and that desperation for a drink is telling.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Suze

I can't believe the woman has made such a song and dance over being refused the glass of wine unless she is an attention seeker. It doesn't really matter much who was in the right or wrong, but that is the barman's job to serve customers and if he refuses for whatever reasons, surely that is his prerogative in his job. It was only a glass of wine though, so why was she getting so upset about it, that's what I can't figure? Go get a glass of wine elsewhere if she needs it so much, a glass of water surely would have sufficed in the meantime with her meal.

Exactly, she's made a complete mountain out of a mole hill.

She also protests too much about how much alcohol she drinks throughout her pregnancy IMO.

There is not enough evidence to prove either way about alcohol consumption during pregnancies so she could still potentially be causing harm to her unborn child.

Lay off the drink for 9 months of your life for your baby's sake, it cant be that hard ffs.

[Ninastar]

^well said Josy.

she's also 37, which is an age where the risk is twice as much greater for a number of different complications... I just wouldn't bother if I were her.

[AnnieK]

Lol....I really don't think she was desperate for a drink...her issue is more about being humiliated (in her mind) by a stranger in public. Her hormones by this time in her pregnancy will be in overdrive so critism and conflict are harder to deal with.