[Jessica.]

Should people who were born as a different gender than they identify by be allowed to change the name and more importantly their birth gender on their birth certificate?

I heard about a woman on the news who's fighting for it in court at the moment, she was born in a male body but identifies as female, now she wants to change the information on her birth certificate to say that she was born genetically female.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No, a fact is a fact

[Munchkins]

Yes they should be allowed to
They were never that "original" gender in the first place, and to deny them the actual legal proof of their change into who they truly are, is wrong in my opinion, it also paves the way for them not being able to get as many jobs if they have a birth certificate which does not show what they look like... for instance if a female goes to a job interview but documentation says shes male shes hardly going to get a job, i mean trans people are already 4x more likely to be unemployed so..
It also makes it much more difficult in many more legal procedures when the certificate and themselves do not actually add up

To deny them of it is just wrong, and im pretty sure its allowed in this country to change the certificate, i mean its legal to get a heterosexual marriage between trans individuals so it must be.
Plus especially in a lot of the cases with the birth name, their parents actually support them on the change, and they were the ones who chose the name in their first place, so

[Jessica.]

I have nothing against anyone who makes an effort to become who they truly believe they are, but I believe that it's very important to keep records about things like this. Imagine the situation where someone is switched at birth? Or if someone is searching for a long lost sibling or a child they were forced to put up for adoption? I think it would be fine for the information to be ADDED to it, but I think something like a birth certificate is too important to alter. Also there are plenty people who have gone through the change and had all of the procedures to be true to who they are, then after a few months or years they make the decision to de-transition, it does happen, would they just get to change their birth cert back again?

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Jessica‪

I have nothing against anyone who makes an effort to become who they truly believe they are, but I believe that it's very important to keep records about things like this. Imagine the situation where someone is switched at birth? Or if someone is searching for a long lost sibling or a child they were forced to put up for adoption? I think it would be fine for the information to be ADDED to it, but I think something like a birth certificate is too important to alter. Also there are plenty people who have gone through the change and had all of the procedures to be true to who they are, then after a few months or years they make the decision to de-transition, it does happen, would they just get to change their birth cert back again?

Tbh the amount of cases where people actually regret the transition is grossly overexaggerated, i mean why wouldnt it be? theres hardly going to be a lot of positive reuputation for transgender individuals in the media is there, and also how would you view a situation where someone is born intersex, and are forced to have a certain gender on their birth certificate due to their parents who get to choose at birth, what about if they grow up and want to switch to the other gender, you could argue they were never either anyway
You could argue that prehaps they could keep a backup for the old certificate i suppose? but it would not be allowed to be used in any legal procedures or anything, and a new one could be issued for them now, then if anything does happen the old one can always be referred to, but it would be completely confidential to only those who have to know?

[user104658]

I don't think a birth certificate should be able to be altered for any reason other than an error at the time of printing (e.g. a friend of mines birth certificate listed the registration date as two months before the date of birth... Heh...) hut there could possibly be provision for making amendments to list something like this, but still keeping the original information available. It's an official document, nothing else.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

Yes they should be allowed to
They were never that "original" gender in the first place, and to deny them the actual legal proof of their change into who they truly are, is wrong in my opinion, it also paves the way for them not being able to get as many jobs if they have a birth certificate which does not show what they look like... for instance if a female goes to a job interview but documentation says shes male shes hardly going to get a job, i mean trans people are already 4x more likely to be unemployed so..
It also makes it much more difficult in many more legal procedures when the certificate and themselves do not actually add up

To deny them of it is just wrong, and im pretty sure its allowed in this country to change the certificate, i mean its legal to get a heterosexual marriage between trans individuals so it must be.
Plus especially in a lot of the cases with the birth name, their parents actually support them on the change, and they were the ones who chose the name in their first place, so

But in my opinion the gender stated on the birth certificate is only a record of what their DNA states, whether they have XX or XY chromosomes. I would agree with birth certificates having a place where they write the actual chromosomes of a person rather than "male" or "female", but I don't think they should be allowed to change that record from their birth. I think people should be whatever gender is true to them, but that birth certificate is not going to stop them being who they are.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think a birth certificate should be able to be altered for any reason other than an error at the time of printing (e.g. a friend of mines birth certificate listed the registration date as two months before the date of birth... Heh...) hut there could possibly be provision for making amendments to list something like this, but still keeping the original information available. It's an official document, nothing else.

Yes I agree. It should reflect all the correct information to the birth of the person. I understand that transgenders feel like they were born in the wrong body but it doesn't change the fact that they were actually born in that body, it's historical document

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Jessica‪

But in my opinion the gender stated on the birth certificate is only a record of what their DNA states, whether they have XX or XY chromosomes. I would agree with birth certificates having a place where they write the actual chromosomes of a person rather than "male" or "female", but I don't think they should be allowed to change that record from their birth. I think people should be whatever gender is true to them, but that birth certificate is not going to stop them being who they are.

It's not going to stop them being who they are but its still a massive legal document which is basically stating, yes this is who you want to be, but you're not actually, hence the original gender/chromosomes, shown on your birth certificate
It also opens up a lot of problems for stealth transexuals (those who you would never be able to tell changed, and typically have high ranking jobs, and simply no-one knows who they are) someone finding out their original gender through birth certificates or legal documentation could literally ruin their lives if it was found out as a lot of employers are sitll really transphobic

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

Yes they should be allowed to
They were never that "original" gender in the first place, and to deny them the actual legal proof of their change into who they truly are, is wrong in my opinion, it also paves the way for them not being able to get as many jobs if they have a birth certificate which does not show what they look like... for instance if a female goes to a job interview but documentation says shes male shes hardly going to get a job, i mean trans people are already 4x more likely to be unemployed so..
It also makes it much more difficult in many more legal procedures when the certificate and themselves do not actually add up

To deny them of it is just wrong, and im pretty sure its allowed in this country to change the certificate, i mean its legal to get a heterosexual marriage between trans individuals so it must be.
Plus especially in a lot of the cases with the birth name, their parents actually support them on the change, and they were the ones who chose the name in their first place, so

Do employers ever ask for a copy of a birth cert though? I never came across that before

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

Tbh the amount of cases where people actually regret the transition is grossly overexaggerated, i mean why wouldnt it be? theres hardly going to be a lot of positive reuputation for transgender individuals in the media is there, and also how would you view a situation where someone is born intersex, and are forced to have a certain gender on their birth certificate due to their parents who get to choose at birth, what about if they grow up and want to switch to the other gender, you could argue they were never either anyway
You could argue that prehaps they could keep a backup for the old certificate i suppose? but it would not be allowed to be used in any legal procedures or anything, and a new one could be issued for them now, then if anything does happen the old one can always be referred to, but it would be completely confidential to only those who have to know?

I have never heard of people de-transitioning in the media, I don't really hear much about gender identity at all to be honest, I am not going by statistics and I didn't say it happens often, I just know that it does happen. I believe that people are only who they believe they are, if someone is born in a male body and they truly feel inside that they are female, for example, they I would never argue with that. I just think that records are important.

Oh yeah, I actually think that keeping a record of the original and then having one that is for use as the owner wishes would probably be a much better idea, but the original would still be on record.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Do employers ever ask for a copy of a birth cert though? I never came across that before

https://www.gov.uk/check-an-employee...work-documents
On here it seems to assume that you can check a birth certificate as proof to employ??
It just is a major problem for those in stealth which is what is worrying for a lot of people, especially those transgender individuals who have married to get high careers without people knowing, if people decide to check up and see on the cencus that no-one with their name actually exists..

[Z]

Added, not altered, IMO.

[lostalex]

Birth certificates are issued by the hospital right? so i think because it's a medical document, it should be medically accurate.

[Vicky.]

Birth certificates should hold the information that was correct when the birth happened.

The fact that years down the line it becomes apparent that the person is in the wrong body is irrelevant IMO.

[Ramsay]

Trying to brush it under the carpet and say they've been a certain gender all their life is silly. Yes, you're female now and that's grand but it is a fact you were born a man

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Karl

Trying to brush it under the carpet and say they've been a certain gender all their life is silly. Yes, you're female now and that's grand but it is a fact you were born with a man

With a man?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Karl

Trying to brush it under the carpet and say they've been a certain gender all their life is silly. Yes, you're female now and that's grand but it is a fact you were born with a man

Born with a man eh, the dirty thing

[arista]

In the future you will have a chip
injected at birth
so small no problems.

[lostalex]

They should just remove gender labels completely.

[Munchkins]

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

But they were still born physically the opposite sex. Even if they discovered at 3 year old that they were in the wrong body, that doesnt change the fact that they were born their original gender, if that make sense.

And noone even bothers with birth certificates anyway really. Its not like you have to show them everywhere and everyone would know?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

Well if there was no transphobia then they wouldn't feel any need to try to hide their birth gender...

The problem is really the transphobia. Hiding their birth gender isn't solving the problem of transphobia in general. Actually hiding their birth gender is actually being cowardly imo. Trans people shouldn't hide the fact that they are trans, it just makes it more mysterious and taboo and contributes to the stereotype that they are trying to "trick" people.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But they were still born physically the opposite sex. Even if they discovered at 3 year old that they were in the wrong body, that doesnt change the fact that they were born their original gender, if that make sense.

And noone even bothers with birth certificates anyway really. Its not like you have to show them everywhere and everyone would know?

But a lot of really cruel people actually do deep research to out people who are trans and try to ruin their careers, and surely there'd be some way of them being able to work out things and a birth certificate is proof
Atleast it isnt a worry for trans people in this country, i just think they should keep the old one as a record but produce a new birth certificate for their preferred gender

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

But a lot of really cruel people actually do deep research to out people who are trans and try to ruin their careers, and surely there'd be some way of them being able to work out things and a birth certificate is proof
Atleast it isnt a worry for trans people in this country, i just think they should keep the old one as a record but produce a new birth certificate for their preferred gender

But thats essentially the same as dong away with the old record? As the new one would be used instead.