[Niall]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The Catholic Church is filled with isms though Niall, how about women not allowed to become priests? That's total sexism if that was a practice in the "real world of business" there would be complete outrage and public backlash but where is the outrage and backlash against it being done in the catholic Church? Fact is religions are a law onto themselves

I know, and that's completely disgusting too. But just because it's a religion doesn't mean it should be condoned. I actually think it's even more wrong to let them fester with such toxic opinions given the wide spectrum of people they influence - and I don't just single out the Catholic Church in this, I used it as an example because it's the one I'm most closely acquainted with.

It just really irks me to see groups get carte blanche over these matters just because they believe 'God says so'. Especially given the fact that in another 100 years they'll only adopt the views of wider society anyway.

[Marsh.]

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....



..anyway, I never get involved in religious discussions.....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

no its not like that whatsoever, what utter nonsense
additonally who are you to speak for all gay people? who are you to label them as all the same with all the same beliefs on religious matters? absurd
many gay people are also religious and many gay people want to get married in a church with the churches blessing
youre not here for the good of gay people, youre here as an attention seeking exercise

[thesheriff443]

saw a sign in a church yard a few days ago, it said,
under the same management for 2000 years!

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

saw a sign in a church yard a few days ago, it said,
under the same management for 2000 years!

Wow! That's quite a feat for that church. It was also nice of the Romans to not knock it down when they saw it getting built

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....



..anyway, I never get involved in religious discussions.....

You should always do so, that is a brilliant piece of work as to a post Ammi.

It just about says everything,ending with the really strong basic 'love and tolerance' part of faith.
Something it seems that Churches need to re-learn and start to live by themselves.

[arista]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

Yes will Never Happen

Those God people have their book
No Gays.



Of Course their is No God
so its just a fable book guiding them.



Feel The Force

[Nedusa]

In simple terms think of it as joining a club which has rules which are all agreed on by the members of that club. So if you want to join that club you would have to agree to abide by their rules.

You surely would not expect to join said club and demand they change the rules to suit you.

For club substitute church and therein lies the problem.

I think a new club needs to be started, one where the rules are more relaxed and suit more people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes will Never Happen

Those God people have their book
No Gays.



Of Course their is No God
so its just a fable book guiding them.



Feel The Force

Bang on right Arista

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

no its not like that whatsoever, what utter nonsense
additonally who are you to speak for all gay people? who are you to label them as all the same with all the same beliefs on religious matters? absurd
many gay people are also religious and many gay people want to get married in a church with the churches blessing
youre not here for the good of gay people, youre here as an attention seeking exercise

There will be many churches willing to give their blessing though. I would think (or hope rather) that most will do them willingly. Just doesn't make sense to force them to do it...it would taint the ceremony anyway surely? I cant imagine getting married knowing that the vicar didnt want to do it, and he had a stony face all the way through

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....

Oh, I completely see where you're coming from and mostly agree with that stance about things not making complete sense in a lot of religions. I just don't think the government interfering and forcing people to allow this/believe this is quite a step in the right direction.

I feel people can stand up to them if they so wish and campaign or debate with them about what they believe. But forcing them to abide by one belief through no change from themselves is counter productive I think.

We'll no doubt end up with another broken faction of the church who accept homosexuality and a myriad of other things too.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes will Never Happen

You surprise me arista, I never thought you'd be so against freedom of speech.

But I suppose if it means forcing people to fall in line with your own thoughts it doesn't really matter to you.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Lets be honest most straight couples who get married in churches are not truly practicing their faith they are simply doing it as its tradition not to be recognized by god.

Who deserves to get married in a church more, a devout gay Christian, church going couple or a man and woman who do not believe in god and are simply using the church as a nice setting.

The bible does say man should not lie with man though so to be honest I totally understand a vicar or priest not wanting to engage in it, it would go against their faith and they would be in their eyes going against god.

It doesn't matter now the fact is we CAN get married and unless they find a loop hole in the bible then I 100% understand why some churches feel uncomfortable about it.

[Marsh.]

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

I know but many gay people still believe in god as apparently everyone was created equally ect, they choose to bypass the judgment in the Bible.

Its just a hyperthetical situation.

If you were to choose who should be accepted in the eyes of god who would you choose a couple who believed in him and respected and followed his rules or a couple who never prayed and did not practice the faith at all?

It should be about faith not the gender but the bible doesn't say that.

Its just a ****ed up debate no one will ever win.

[arista]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

You surprise me arista, I never thought you'd be so against freedom of speech.

But I suppose if it means forcing people to fall in line with your own thoughts it doesn't really matter to you.

No freedom of speech is fine
unless its against a Old Church
that would be better used as a Disco
for the young

[Shaun]

I think most of those who're gay christians have been brought up in a very religious family - probably Catholic, since they're a little more... strict and fun, than protestants or the half-arsed CofE folk - and just want to stay pleasing the family but keep within the faith. It's like keeping the family name or not seeing the partner before at the altar, just a tradition that shouldn't really be a problem.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

no its not like that whatsoever.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by the truth

no its not like that whatsoever.

Actually it is a bit like that.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by daniel-lewis-1985

I know but many gay people still believe in god as apparently everyone was created equally ect, they choose to bypass the judgment in the Bible.

Its just a hyperthetical situation.

I know it's just hypothetical but I was talking about gay people wanting to be involved in a specific religion which denounces homosexuality.

Believing in God doesn't necessarily make you a Christian. Plenty people are spiritual/believe in a god without belonging to an organised religion.

Originally Posted by the truth

no its not like that whatsoever.

Well, yes it is.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by arista

No freedom of speech is fine
unless its against a Old Church
that would be better used as a Disco
for the young

There is no unless about it. You're either for freedom of speech or you're not.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Oh, I completely see where you're coming from and mostly agree with that stance about things not making complete sense in a lot of religions. I just don't think the government interfering and forcing people to allow this/believe this is quite a step in the right direction.

I feel people can stand up to them if they so wish and campaign or debate with them about what they believe. But forcing them to abide by one belief through no change from themselves is counter productive I think.

We'll no doubt end up with another broken faction of the church who accept homosexuality and a myriad of other things too.

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

[arista]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

There is no unless about it. You're either for freedom of speech or you're not.

But Church folk are a brick wall.



So ignore them
and have Freedom of Speech

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

aw that's awful Ammi, my kids have been aware of homosexuality since they were quite young and neither of them would bat an eyelid at a gay couple or think there was anything strange about gay marriage and I think that's the right way to go about things and to really nip homophobia in the bud