[the truth]

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/nation...2001-1-7115115

utterly tragic up 23% in a year....the gap between male and femle suicides has also grown even further ..78% of suicides are men and 22% female.
These are the worst figures in over 30 years.

Something radical needs to be done to help these men in particular to try improve their quality of life and the access to help available to do..The men I know who killed themselves did so due to a combination of factors....in some cases they could get regular work, 1 guy I kne jumped off a car park because he couldn't get to see his son, he also drank a lot. The experts say its usually a combination of either family breakdown, social breakdown with no one to talk to, unemployment, drink etc

the system has failed these people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I feel so sorry for anyone who reaches this point.

[Liam-]

There needs to be a better system in place to help all people who feel suicidal tendencies, not 'particularly' men, everybody.

[Gstar]

23% in the space of a year, that's crazy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

last year a friend of mine did this leaving young children behind

so sad

and he was the friendliest person I know

[the truth]

Originally Posted by LiamPRW

There needs to be a better system in place to help all people who feel suicidal tendencies, not 'particularly' men, everybody.

whilst all suicides are tragic the need for assistance is even moreso for men where the problem i4 times worse and the funding is still far less than for women...im sorry but theres a finite amount of resources and the need in men is more urgent....this issue has been brushed under the carpet for decades and its a national and international disgrace to see so many men kill themselves in western society.......lets not forget the fact womens health / charities and support organizations outnumber mens by a ratio of more than 50 to 1...also far more is spent on womens cancer than men even though men get cancer more and die more from it.....men die 5 years younger on average as it is, they work more years in their lives and kill themselves at 4 times the rate.....a rise of 23% in a year is insane

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by the truth

whilst all suicides are tragic the need for assistance is even moreso for men where the problem i4 times worse and the funding is still far less than for women...im sorry but theres a finite amount of resources and the need in men is more urgent....this issue has been brushed under the carpet for decades and its a national and international disgrace to see so many men kill themselves in western society.......lets not forget the fact womens health / charities and support organizations outnumber mens by a ratio of more than 50 to 1...also far more is spent on womens cancer than men even though men get cancer more and die more from it.....men die 5 years younger on average as it is, they work more years in their lives and kill themselves at 4 times the rate.....a rise of 23% in a year is insane

Why can't you just want more rights for men instead of bashing women again? It's almost like you are saying men are more oppressed in society

[the truth]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Why can't you just want more rights for men instead of bashing women again? It's almost like you are saying men are more oppressed in society

men ARE more oppressed in western society by miles and miles, the oppression has grown out of control in the past 20 years and weve been asleep at the wheel..the trick used is every time mens rights are discussed feminists change the subject to the oppression of women in the 3rd world and middle east which is of course disgusting in many ways...BUT the fact of the matter is that in western society men have far less rights far less support far less health care far less taxes and charity moneies spent on their well being. its wrong in fact its an absolute blody disgrace and im mad as hell about it on behalf of these millions of men....of course if any man dare speak up as people always say men should do, GO ON MEN SPEAK UP ABOUT IT...theyre immediately shouted down as male chauvinist pigs

[kirklancaster]

MEN have been steadily but increasingly 'emasculated' for nearly 60 years. There are many, many, reasons, but briefly:

HISTORICAL ROLE REVERSAL

'Hunter Gatherer'

Given what we know, from Man's earliest days, it is the male of the species who was the 'Hunter Gatherer' and went out to hunt and kill and gather food to sustain the family. The female of the species remained in their primitive dwelling with their offspring and awaited the return of the patriarch with their food.

Now, generally, it is the Female of the species who has gradually taken over as the 'Hunter Gatherer', as it is she who goes out to the shops and supermarkets and returns home with the food and provisions.

'Chief Income Earner'

Traditionally, it was for a long time, the male who went out to work and provided the money needed to keep the family with a roof over their heads and the 'wolf from the door'. If the female worked, it was generally in a supplementary role in low-paid menial jobs.

Now, generally, the female has gradually taken over as the chief 'bread winner' or even sole breadwinner in a lot of households.

In addition, where once employment was relatively easy to find, it is now much harder to find a job.

'Respect'

Traditionally, children were raised to honour and respect their parents (and others) and in general relied on the father as head of the household for guidance and advice. Even the boyfriends of daughters had to formally 'seek' the father's permission, both to start 'courting' her and in the case of engagement or marriage.

Now, children have 'outgrown' the father in diverse ways; they are generally better educated and more knowledgeable and sophisticated, understand ever evolving technology far better, and gradually over decades have lost their respect for their parents (and others) in line with the rest of society as it has continued to degenerate.

'Media Conditioning'

This very real issue does not only affect the male, but also the female and children - though it is usually on a subconscious, or even subliminal level - but every waking hour of our lives we are being increasingly subjected to a bombardment by media of 'archetypal' images of not only the ideal people we should be or aspire to being, but also of the correct effects and accoutrements necessary to be that ideal person.

Whether we accept the above or not, it is nonetheless real, and actually effects us; we can sit on the cheapest of sofas in relative comfort, we can drive many low cost reliable cars in comfort and safety, we can clothe our naked bodies in attractive and functional clothes which can be cheaply bought - why then do masses of people struggle with repaying the the finance of very expensive flashy cars, pay £1,000’s out for expensive furniture and worry so much about fashion labels and the way we look?

But for males who inevitably ‘come up short’ in subconscious, or even conscious self-comparisons with these B.S. ‘ideals’, psychological damage is a very real – if undiagnosed – consequence.

(This ‘Media Conditioning’ is also one of the causes of much of the irrational violence on our city streets at weekends when fuelled by alcohol or drugs, young males attack others for no tangible reasons, only a hidden psychological one, that they are trying to assert their masculinity because of feelings of inadequacy and inferiority after living with a subconscious awareness that they do not ‘measure up’ to the fake ideal projected by the media.)

‘Mortality’

Men age more quickly than women. More men develop fatal illnesses than do woman, and men die younger than women. So it is no surprise that men are aware – again perhaps not consciously so – of their fallibility at an earlier age than are women. This alone can lead to depression and anxiety.

Summary

I think that a lot of ‘modern’ men have, for a long time now, felt anxious and uncertain about their roles in society, and especially within the family unit.

They look back at their fathers and grandfathers and see a huge difference in their ‘masculinity’ in comparison, and in their positions as ‘heads’ of the family where their word was heeded, their advice sought and valued, and their status respected. They see the same differences in their father’s and grandfather’s roles as chief ‘breadwinners’, and – again - it is not a comparison they are comfortable with, especially if they are out of work or forced to claim benefits.

Add to this, the very real unfair factors in today’s society which are prejudiced against men, which ‘The Truth’ highlights in his post, and it should not surprise that some modern men can feel increasingly, both marginalised, and like worthless failures, and end up as drug addicts, alcoholics or even suicidal.

I think that any incredulity or surprise in reaction to the original post therefore, should be not so much caused by the fact that there is an increase in male suicides, but more the fact that it is occurring in Wales.

I have my own views on this, but that's another post.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

'Respect'

Traditionally, children were raised to honour and respect their parents (and others) and in general relied on the father as head of the household for guidance and advice. Even the boyfriends of daughters had to formally 'seek' the father's permission, both to start 'courting' her and in the case of engagement or marriage.

Now, children have 'outgrown' the father in diverse ways; they are generally better educated and more knowledgeable and sophisticated, understand ever evolving technology far better, and gradually over decades have lost their respect for their parents (and others) in line with the rest of society as it has continued to degenerate.

I just wanted to address this point. I think it's so much better these days now that men are allowed to have a more active role in raising their kids, I would say alot more kids nowadays have closer relationships with their fathers because of it as well.

As for the rest of your post, as a woman and a mother to a daughter I'm so glad women have evolved in society and aren't second class citizens like before

[smudgie]

Such sad statistics.

Personally I think men believe they can/should cope without asking for help to start with.
Even in these days of equality a lot of men still think they have to be the stronger sex, both physically and emotionally.
Women can rant and rave and let off steam instead of bottling stuff up as well.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just wanted to address this point. I think it's so much better these days now that men are allowed to have a more active role in raising their kids, I would say alot more kids nowadays have closer relationships with their fathers because of it as well.

As for the rest of your post, as a woman and a mother to a daughter I'm so glad women have evolved in society and aren't second class citizens like before

Oh, I'm not referring to all families Niamh or defending the 'Victorian' "Dear Pater, Sir" model, I'm just examining why some males end up as alcoholics or suicidal - often without quite knowing why. A lot of us cope much better, thank God, even when life throws more than our fair share of **** at us.

I had as much input into raising my kids as my wife did - if not more - and I couldn't want for a more close relationship.

Unfortunately, we aren't all the same.


As for 'women evolving' I'm not endorsing what Truth says in that area. I'm putting reasons out there as to why some men may feel increasingly inadequate and irrelevant, of which the 'role reversal' is but one of them, but I'm not saying that women should have stayed in the background and tied 'Victorian' style to the kitchen sink or marital bed.

I don't think that (and I wouldn't dare say it if I did )

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh, I'm not referring to all families Niamh or defending the 'Victorian' "Dear Pater, Sir" model, I'm just examining why some males end up as alcoholics or suicidal - often without quite knowing why. A lot of us cope much better, thank God, even when life throws more than our fair share of **** at us.

I had as much input into raising my kids as my wife did - if not more - and I couldn't want for a more close relationship.

Unfortunately, we aren't all the same.


As for 'women evolving' I'm not endorsing what Truth says in that area. I'm putting reasons out there as to why some men may feel increasingly inadequate and irrelevant, of which the 'role reversal' is but one of them, but I'm not saying that women should have stayed in the background and tied 'Victorian' style to the kitchen sink or marital bed.

I don't think that (and I wouldn't dare say it if I did )

I disagree that it's a "role reversal" as such, there's just more choices for women and couples in general. I don't think all women should now work and the men should stay home with the children. I think that now men and women are on a more equal standing, they can work better as a team and do what's best for their families.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I disagree that it's a "role reversal" as such, there's just more choices for women and couples in general. I don't think all women should now work and the men should stay home with the children. I think that now men and women are on a more equal standing, they can work better as a team and do what's best for their families.

I meant psychologically in a strict historical context; 'hunter gatherer'.

[DemolitionRed]

Differing methods by gender
Main article: Suicide methods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_...ces_in_suicide

The reported difference in suicide rates for males and females is partially a result of the methods used by each gender. Although females attempt suicide at a higher rate, they are more likely to use methods that are less immediately lethal. Males frequently complete suicide via high mortality actions such as hanging, carbon-monoxide poisoning, and firearms. This is in contrast to females, who tend to rely on drug overdosing.[16] While overdosing can be deadly, it is less immediate and therefore more likely to be caught before death occurs. In Europe, where the gender discrepancy is the greatest, a study found that the most frequent method of suicide among both genders was hanging, however the use of hanging was much higher in males (54.3%) than in females (35.6%). The same study found that the second most common methods were firearms for men and poisoning for women.

Methods of suicide are frequently correlated both with traditional gender roles and availability of different methods. Men are more likely than women to both use and own firearms, which could account for the higher rates of firearm death among males. In nations where firearms have been banned, there is a drop in male suicides via gun but no change in females.[11] Females may tend towards less lethal methods of suicide because of gender-based ideas about attractiveness

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Differing methods by gender
Main article: Suicide methods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_...ces_in_suicide

The reported difference in suicide rates for males and females is partially a result of the methods used by each gender. Although females attempt suicide at a higher rate, they are more likely to use methods that are less immediately lethal. Males frequently complete suicide via high mortality actions such as hanging, carbon-monoxide poisoning, and firearms. This is in contrast to females, who tend to rely on drug overdosing.[16] While overdosing can be deadly, it is less immediate and therefore more likely to be caught before death occurs. In Europe, where the gender discrepancy is the greatest, a study found that the most frequent method of suicide among both genders was hanging, however the use of hanging was much higher in males (54.3%) than in females (35.6%). The same study found that the second most common methods were firearms for men and poisoning for women.

Methods of suicide are frequently correlated both with traditional gender roles and availability of different methods. Men are more likely than women to both use and own firearms, which could account for the higher rates of firearm death among males. In nations where firearms have been banned, there is a drop in male suicides via gun but no change in females.[11] Females may tend towards less lethal methods of suicide because of gender-based ideas about attractiveness

Very informative.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Differing methods by gender
Main article: Suicide methods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_...ces_in_suicide

The reported difference in suicide rates for males and females is partially a result of the methods used by each gender. Although females attempt suicide at a higher rate, they are more likely to use methods that are less immediately lethal. Males frequently complete suicide via high mortality actions such as hanging, carbon-monoxide poisoning, and firearms. This is in contrast to females, who tend to rely on drug overdosing.[16] While overdosing can be deadly, it is less immediate and therefore more likely to be caught before death occurs. In Europe, where the gender discrepancy is the greatest, a study found that the most frequent method of suicide among both genders was hanging, however the use of hanging was much higher in males (54.3%) than in females (35.6%). The same study found that the second most common methods were firearms for men and poisoning for women.

Methods of suicide are frequently correlated both with traditional gender roles and availability of different methods. Men are more likely than women to both use and own firearms, which could account for the higher rates of firearm death among males. In nations where firearms have been banned, there is a drop in male suicides via gun but no change in females.[11] Females may tend towards less lethal methods of suicide because of gender-based ideas about attractiveness

Hmm this is interesting..I guess it makes sense. Much harder to 'attempt' suicide with a gun than with pills :S Sad either way though but helps explain this. Although I also agree about women having more support in general too.

[Kizzy]

This is shocking, though there has been a lot of resources and cash given to raise awareness of mental health issues in men it obviously hasn't been enough, or it's not been utilised correctly.
A return to a patriarchal Victorian society is not the answer is it?

The loss of industry and communities and the pride associated with this is a major factor in this area imo.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by the truth

men ARE more oppressed in western society by miles and miles,

*rollseyes*

[the truth]

Originally Posted by letmein

*rollseyes*

nearly 5000 british men kill themselves and all you can do is roll your eyes? Its such shameful indifference to the suffering of men in this country that contributes to making the situation develop into something so horrific...feminists simply do not care

[the truth]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar....html#comments

men contract almost every single cancers at massively higher rates than women, yet the nhs funding is massively greater for female cancer...what an absolute disgrace and the very definition of sexism and the worst possible type of discrimination

[the truth]

theyre up in the rest of the uk for men too...gone up every year for 8 years and78% are men

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

MEN have been steadily but increasingly 'emasculated' for nearly 60 years. There are many, many, reasons, but briefly:

HISTORICAL ROLE REVERSAL

'Hunter Gatherer'

Given what we know, from Man's earliest days, it is the male of the species who was the 'Hunter Gatherer' and went out to hunt and kill and gather food to sustain the family. The female of the species remained in their primitive dwelling with their offspring and awaited the return of the patriarch with their food.

Now, generally, it is the Female of the species who has gradually taken over as the 'Hunter Gatherer', as it is she who goes out to the shops and supermarkets and returns home with the food and provisions.

'Chief Income Earner'

Traditionally, it was for a long time, the male who went out to work and provided the money needed to keep the family with a roof over their heads and the 'wolf from the door'. If the female worked, it was generally in a supplementary role in low-paid menial jobs.

Now, generally, the female has gradually taken over as the chief 'bread winner' or even sole breadwinner in a lot of households.

In addition, where once employment was relatively easy to find, it is now much harder to find a job.

'Respect'

Traditionally, children were raised to honour and respect their parents (and others) and in general relied on the father as head of the household for guidance and advice. Even the boyfriends of daughters had to formally 'seek' the father's permission, both to start 'courting' her and in the case of engagement or marriage.

Now, children have 'outgrown' the father in diverse ways; they are generally better educated and more knowledgeable and sophisticated, understand ever evolving technology far better, and gradually over decades have lost their respect for their parents (and others) in line with the rest of society as it has continued to degenerate.

'Media Conditioning'

This very real issue does not only affect the male, but also the female and children - though it is usually on a subconscious, or even subliminal level - but every waking hour of our lives we are being increasingly subjected to a bombardment by media of 'archetypal' images of not only the ideal people we should be or aspire to being, but also of the correct effects and accoutrements necessary to be that ideal person.

Whether we accept the above or not, it is nonetheless real, and actually effects us; we can sit on the cheapest of sofas in relative comfort, we can drive many low cost reliable cars in comfort and safety, we can clothe our naked bodies in attractive and functional clothes which can be cheaply bought - why then do masses of people struggle with repaying the the finance of very expensive flashy cars, pay £1,000’s out for expensive furniture and worry so much about fashion labels and the way we look?

But for males who inevitably ‘come up short’ in subconscious, or even conscious self-comparisons with these B.S. ‘ideals’, psychological damage is a very real – if undiagnosed – consequence.

(This ‘Media Conditioning’ is also one of the causes of much of the irrational violence on our city streets at weekends when fuelled by alcohol or drugs, young males attack others for no tangible reasons, only a hidden psychological one, that they are trying to assert their masculinity because of feelings of inadequacy and inferiority after living with a subconscious awareness that they do not ‘measure up’ to the fake ideal projected by the media.)

‘Mortality’

Men age more quickly than women. More men develop fatal illnesses than do woman, and men die younger than women. So it is no surprise that men are aware – again perhaps not consciously so – of their fallibility at an earlier age than are women. This alone can lead to depression and anxiety.

Summary

I think that a lot of ‘modern’ men have, for a long time now, felt anxious and uncertain about their roles in society, and especially within the family unit.

They look back at their fathers and grandfathers and see a huge difference in their ‘masculinity’ in comparison, and in their positions as ‘heads’ of the family where their word was heeded, their advice sought and valued, and their status respected. They see the same differences in their father’s and grandfather’s roles as chief ‘breadwinners’, and – again - it is not a comparison they are comfortable with, especially if they are out of work or forced to claim benefits.

Add to this, the very real unfair factors in today’s society which are prejudiced against men, which ‘The Truth’ highlights in his post, and it should not surprise that some modern men can feel increasingly, both marginalised, and like worthless failures, and end up as drug addicts, alcoholics or even suicidal.

I think that any incredulity or surprise in reaction to the original post therefore, should be not so much caused by the fact that there is an increase in male suicides, but more the fact that it is occurring in Wales.

I have my own views on this, but that's another post.

Some Good points made here Kirk, I think also the fact that the average age of male suicide has fallen is also indicative that the social factors especially in Wales may be the primary drivers of this sad statistic.

Traditionally Wales has had an abundance of Male dominated Heavy industries like coal mining and Iron & Steel making, whole communities suffered badly when these industries declined in the 70's and 80's and the impact was probably felt more directly by the male family members.

Now with new generations of young men coming of age and finding no work, no prospect of work it is very easy to fall into a downward spiral of despair which many youngsters can only escape through drugs and alcohol and more recently heavy cannabis abuse.

The long term effect of these drugs is severe and can easily lead to thoughts of suicide , particularly relevant is the psychosis developed through heavy strong cannabis addiction.

Homelessness can also be a factor as there is very little chance of Social housing for young adult males, whereas young women can get housed (especially if they have new babies).

I think taken together with the social conditioning we all receive telling us to live the good life buy the latest car and designer clothing the feelings of utter hopelessness are magnified for a lot of younger men trapped in these circumstances.

Sad that they feel suicide is the only answer, and even sadder that they actually succeed in ending their lives.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Some Good points made here Kirk, I think also the fact that the average age of male suicide has fallen is also indicative that the social factors especially in Wales may be the primary drivers of this sad statistic.

Traditionally Wales has had an abundance of Male dominated Heavy industries like coal mining and Iron & Steel making, whole communities suffered badly when these industries declined in the 70's and 80's and the impact was probably felt more directly by the male family members.

Now with new generations of young men coming of age and finding no work, no prospect of work it is very easy to fall into a downward spiral of despair which many youngsters can only escape through drugs and alcohol and more recently heavy cannabis abuse.

The long term effect of these drugs is severe and can easily lead to thoughts of suicide , particularly relevant is the psychosis developed through heavy strong cannabis addiction.

Homelessness can also be a factor as there is very little chance of Social housing for young adult males, whereas young women can get housed (especially if they have new babies).

I think taken together with the social conditioning we all receive telling us to live the good life buy the latest car and designer clothing the feelings of utter hopelessness are magnified for a lot of younger men trapped in these circumstances.

Sad that they feel suicide is the only answer, and even sadder that they actually succeed in ending their lives.

A superb post as usual Nedusa and echoing a lot of my own thoughts.

As a footnote; it is so easy to see (for those who are not politically blinkered) that the above are a part of the very grave consequences of Thatcherite policies which created the biggest schism in British society there has ever been.

But that's another post.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by the truth

nearly 5000 british men kill themselves and all you can do is roll your eyes? Its such shameful indifference to the suffering of men in this country that contributes to making the situation develop into something so horrific...feminists simply do not care

Men are suffering and feminists do care, but the fact of the matter is that women suffer more generally