[the truth]

this is my theory, ive no polls of papers to back it up
its the impression I get across the board

the vast majority of kids all say , in some cases even look the same way, the same things all dictated by peer pressure , school teaching and government programmes...allied to twitter facebook selfies phone cameras every move is on show and anyone who doesn't follow the crowd is ostracised

I live in a labour stronghold and the vats number of 14 to 18 year olds are on facebook twitter and texting al agreeing labour are awesome conservatives are evil greedy etc absolute no dissenting voices no questions asked no debate on both sides all subtlety and nuance destroyed.....socialist good capitalist bad....this type of mentality seeps into everything else...these kids don't question themselves or doubt what theyre taught for a second....they march on almost brainwashed with a narrow uncompromising view of life

the parents fail utterly to teach them balance in many cases or to question what theyre taught or to show them the counter arguments...anything eccentric or unorthodox or someone who questions the shared ideologies is squashed shouted down or ignored...again this is radical progressive liberalism where counter opinions or even questions are simply not allowed...anyone who does that is alienated he/she must be an ist ...a racist or a sexist or an ageist

they talk only of religious brainwash, theres all kinds of brainwash and this culture is certainly it, get brainwashed go along with the party line unconditionally without question at all time or be alienated and bullied and we wont help you , even when youre sick ......orwell predicted it, they'll rid the language of its meaning then they'll steal it


in a few years this opinion of mine may be yours, by that stage it will be irreversible even in the law courts

[Livia]

I don't have such a view of young people, they're smarter than many people give them credit for in my opinion. There are lots of young people on this forum who are very eloquent and think things through to the end. They also generally appreciate the freedoms this country gives them.

[Kizzy]

If young adults are half baked then children are raw, and yes you can project lots of things onto them quite easily look at that little boy who said he was voting UKIP as he wanted immigrants out.
It's important they are taught that as well as hard work empathy and social and moral reasoning should come into play in problem solving and decision making.
Orwell did predict it, he also predicted that we would be entirely complicit and we are.
He saw it because he lived on both sides ...

'For perhaps ten years past I have had some grasp of the real nature of capitalist society. I have seen British imperialism at work in Burma, and I have seen something of the effects of poverty and unemployment in Britain…. One has got to be actively a Socialist, not merely sympathetic to Socialism, or one plays into the hands of our always-active enemies.

– George Orwell, “Why I Joined the Independent Labour Party”

http://www.biographyonline.net/socialism-george-orwell/

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have such a view of young people, they're smarter than many people give them credit for in my opinion. There are lots of young people on this forum who are very eloquent and think things through to the end. They also generally appreciate the freedoms this country gives them.

I agree Livia, if this forum is anything to go by, then I actually find many of the younger members to be much more open minded than many of the older members. Without naming names. :teehee:

Also my sister in law is 19 and has a wide range of friends, from geeks to "troubled teens" (she's one of their generation of people who all have something like 5000 Facebook "friends"), and I've seen discussions on her Facebook page get quite heated with plenty of differing viewpoints being offered up. I wouldn't call most of them very academic either, just normal kids but all quite clued up, and certainly not all following the crowd or agreeing with each other.

If anything I think young people now, the "internet generation", are much more skeptical and therefore much more resistant to propaganda or being lead by the media or the press than ever before.


I find that I personally occupy a very confusing space somewhere between genX and Y... Flipping and flopping between sparkly eyed idealism and bitter cynicism. Sigh!

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree Livia, if this forum is anything to go by, then I actually find many of the younger members to be much more open minded than many of the older members. Without naming names. :teehee:

Also my sister in law is 19 and has a wide range of friends, from geeks to "troubled teens" (she's one of their generation of people who all have something like 5000 Facebook "friends"), and I've seen discussions on her Facebook page get quite heated with plenty of differing viewpoints being offered up. I wouldn't call most of them very academic either, just normal kids but all quite clued up, and certainly not all following the crowd or agreeing with each other.

If anything I think young people now, the "internet generation", are much more skeptical and therefore much more resistant to propaganda or being lead by the media or the press than ever before.


I find that I personally occupy a very confusing space somewhere between genX and Y... Flipping and flopping between sparkly eyed idealism and bitter cynicism. Sigh!

I hope youre right and Im wrong

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

I hope youre right and Im wrong

I don't actually think you're wrong when it comes to schools, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm constantly horrified by my daughter's primary school and it's attempts to turn the kids into little conformist drones. I despise their "traffic light" punishment system, their insistence on holding bright kids back to keep in line with the lowest common denominator, and some of the things that I've heard of kids being punished for are mind boggling (clever kids finishing easy work "too quickly" losing out on playtime for "moaning too much" to the teacher that they were bored!). My view of the school system so far is that it is DESPERATE to homogenise young people. The school's mottos and goals, that they actually have painted on a wall outside, mention encouraging inquisitive minds and leadership qualities but I've seen absolutely no evidence of that. They encourage bland obedience and subordinance. We spend a good hour every day chatting to our daughter about her day after school and encouraging her to think critically about the things that have happened and what she actually thinks about them ("and do you think your teacher was right to do that?", "was that fair?" Etc.) just to ensure that she does remain an individual with opinions of her own, and not just a "but teacher sez".

However, I think that now more than ever (and the effect will hopefully only increase) young people today have access to an entire world of knowledge and opinions at their fingertips, and that is what makes the difference. We're bombarded with opinions of all sorts from all sides and that ensures that teenagers and young adults have little choice but to actually take a moment to think about who and what they agree with and where they stand. The days when mindsets can be influenced by blanket printed press propaganda are very limited, I think. I hope!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't actually think you're wrong when it comes to schools, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm constantly horrified by my daughter's primary school and it's attempts to turn the kids into little conformist drones. I despise their "traffic light" punishment system, their insistence on holding bright kids back to keep in line with the lowest common denominator, and some of the things that I've heard of kids being punished for are mind boggling (clever kids finishing easy work "too quickly" losing out on playtime for "moaning too much" to the teacher that they were bored!). My view of the school system so far is that it is DESPERATE to homogenise young people. The school's mottos and goals, that they actually have painted on a wall outside, mention encouraging inquisitive minds and leadership qualities but I've seen absolutely no evidence of that. They encourage bland obedience and subordinance. We spend a good hour every day chatting to our daughter about her day after school and encouraging her to think critically about the things that have happened and what she actually thinks about them ("and do you think your teacher was right to do that?", "was that fair?" Etc.) just to ensure that she does remain an individual with opinions of her own, and not just a "but teacher sez".

However, I think that now more than ever (and the effect will hopefully only increase) young people today have access to an entire world of knowledge and opinions at their fingertips, and that is what makes the difference. We're bombarded with opinions of all sorts from all sides and that ensures that teenagers and young adults have little choice but to actually take a moment to think about who and what they agree with and where they stand. The days when mindsets can be influenced by blanket printed press propaganda are very limited, I think. I hope!

Are you one of those parents who sit for well over the allotted time at parents evening while the line of waiting parents grows I agree with what you are saying in some ways and whilst critical thinking is great, I would also throw in that children need to learn respect, discipline and self restraint

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Are you one of those parents who sit for well over the allotted time at parents evening while the line of waiting parents grows I agree with what you are saying in some ways and whilst critical thinking is great, I would also throw in that children need to learn respect, discipline and self restraint

The two are not mutually exclusive, but interestingly enough, respect, discipline and self restraint REQUIRE critical thinking and autonomy. It's not respect if it's simple conformity, it's not restraint or discipline if there's no individual thought to keep restrained or under discipline. "Auto-pilot kids" aren't doing any of those things, they're just trundling along on preset rails. They might outwardly appear to be respectful, but if you quiz them on why it's important you get nonsensical answers like "because I don't want the teacher to put my name on yellow warning". Fear is not respect. And kids who are too advanced for the work that is being given to them being held back because little suzy can't count past ten yet is already inexcusable... To then punish them for coming forward and saying "this **** is too easy for me" is utter madness.

And nah, our parents evenings go pretty quickly... Her teacher is already abundantly aware of our thoughts and feelings on the traffic light system. We're THOSE annoying parents... The ones who get a letter asking us to reinforce the use of the traffic light system at home, and send a reply stating that we will happily reinforce that it is meaningless nonsense. Then set up a traffic light board in our daughter's room with only her teacher's name on it, so that she can choose each day how well her teacher behaved .

Yeah. We're pretty irritating.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The two are not mutually exclusive, but interestingly enough, respect, discipline and self restraint REQUIRE critical thinking and autonomy. It's not respect if it's simple conformity, it's not restraint or discipline if there's no individual thought to keep restrained or under discipline. "Auto-pilot kids" aren't doing any of those things, they're just trundling along on preset rails. They might outwardly appear to be respectful, but if you quiz them on why it's important you get nonsensical answers like "because I don't want the teacher to put my name on yellow warning". Fear is not respect. And kids who are too advanced for the work that is being given to them being held back because little suzy can't count past ten yet is already inexcusable... To then punish them for coming forward and saying "this **** is too easy for me" is utter madness.

And nah, our parents evenings go pretty quickly... Her teacher is already abundantly aware of our thoughts and feelings on the traffic light system. We're THOSE annoying parents... The ones who get a letter asking us to reinforce the use of the traffic light system at home, and send a reply stating that we will happily reinforce that it is meaningless nonsense. Then set up a traffic light board in our daughter's room with only her teacher's name on it, so that she can choose each day how well her teacher behaved .

Yeah. We're pretty irritating.

Is the Scottish system different to the English?, are the kids not put in "sets"as to their ability. Do you have SATS league tables, in England the focus is very much on extending the bright kids so the school will sit high in the league tables, sometimes to the detriment of the not so bright ones I have one of each a real high flyer, in all the top sets, gifted and talented, always the lead in school plays and then one who struggled with English and Science who was always pushed to the back during school plays and it was even suggested that he not take his year six science SATS exam, trust me that did not happen

[user104658]

They do "streaming" which is allowing kids to go to higher year group classrooms for subjects they're ahead in like maths, but apparently don't like to do it before age 7 because the younger kids are chattier and more easily distracted even if their ability level is up to scratch and it's disruptive for the other class. Which is probably true, so I get it. It's not much help, though. I try to keep an eye on their traffic light system although my own brat seems to have learned to navigate it, after months of one "yellow" per week (always a Thursday??), it genuinely seems to mostly be the brighter kids, and for things like chatting / giggling / moaning / fidgeting / complaining. Boredom, basically.

It can be so damaging. Kids are naturally eager to learn and if you fail to challenge them and consistently leave them bored they will lose that enthusiasm and once it's gone it can be impossible to replace.

[the truth]

kids simply don't play enough....the parks are empty , to think of saddling kids with heavy politics , sex lessons , heavy economics etc is sad. yes give them options and information and treat each as individuals...but the system appears to me to be creating enormous peer pressure and polarised black and white opinions. the concern too is diverse opinions or even inquisitions seem to be getting censored heavily or even banned totally and realpolitik is lost. I don't respect people who don't look at both sides of an argument before reaching an opinion. no doubt some will accuse me of this too, fair enough I wont wish to censor your opinions like these radicals.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

kids simply don't play enough....the parks are empty , to think of saddling kids with heavy politics , sex lessons , heavy economics etc is sad. yes give them options and information and treat each as individuals...but the system appears to me to be creating enormous peer pressure and polarised black and white opinions. the concern too is diverse opinions or even inquisitions seem to be getting censored heavily or even banned totally and realpolitik is lost. I don't respect people who don't look at both sides of an argument before reaching an opinion. no doubt some will accuse me of this too, fair enough I wont wish to censor your opinions like these radicals.

..children in primary schools are though encouraged in discussions and listening to others to get different perspectives of things..speak and listen type thing and not just what they think...they are taught to do that from reception age by discussing not only stories but also other things within the school and their friendship groups...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

kids simply don't play enough....the parks are empty , to think of saddling kids with heavy politics , sex lessons , heavy economics etc is sad. yes give them options and information and treat each as individuals...but the system appears to me to be creating enormous peer pressure and polarised black and white opinions. the concern too is diverse opinions or even inquisitions seem to be getting censored heavily or even banned totally and realpolitik is lost. I don't respect people who don't look at both sides of an argument before reaching an opinion. no doubt some will accuse me of this too, fair enough I wont wish to censor your opinions like these radicals.

Kids learn best through exploration and play and, certainly in my experience, no they don't get anywhere near enough of it. My eldest is only 5 and already there's very little play-based learning for her at school, then she gets home and usually has both writing and maths homework which can take up to 45 minutes because she's already tired and doesn't want to do it, then it's dinner time which is just about the only time she has to relax, as not long after she finishes eating she's starting to get heavy eyelids ready for bed :/. There's simply no time for her to play, explore and be a child other than the weekend and to me that's very sad. From various Facebook discussion groups I've deduced that my daughters school has a relatively heavy homework load, maybe others are better, but even if they are there's only maybe an hour a day for carefree play once you factor in having dinner.

My daughter also gets quite a lot of freedom compared to many kids so at least at the weekend she is out playing with a large (and ever growing it seems!) group of kids from the same street and I'm very glad that she has that. It confirms that moving house a year ago was a great move for us. I fully understand parents keeping their kids on a tighter leash because where we lived before, she definitely wouldn't have had the freedom she has here. It's natural for parents to be risk-averse with kids, there are SO many horror stories, but it really isn't good for them to have absolutely no room to grow. That's how you end up with 15/16 year olds who are still acting like toddlers.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..children in primary schools are though encouraged in discussions and listening to others to get different perspectives of things..speak and listen type thing and not just what they think...they are taught to do that from reception age by discussing not only stories but also other things within the school and their friendship groups...

its failing miserably...kids don't play , kids are often obese and unhealthy now, in some cases often unhappy and lonely too. over exposed to everything they don't get much childhood anymore, prom kings and queens for 7 year olds, image over substance has been the way for years now....everyone MUST tow the party line or get left out in the cold....and guess what lies ahead for them ? decades of debts , debts built up by the same do gooders that ruined childhood in the first place

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

its failing miserably...kids don't play , kids are often obese and unhealthy now, in some cases often unhappy and lonely too. over exposed to everything they don't get much childhood anymore, prom kings and queens for 7 year olds, image over substance has been the way for years now....everyone MUST tow the party line or get left out in the cold....and guess what lies ahead for them ? decades of debts , debts built up by the same do gooders that ruined childhood in the first place

...hmmm, I'm thinking about this..children do still play though, truth..at school I mean as well as out of school..in many schools they still play traditional type games like hopscotch, tag games etc..just the type of games that I would have played as a child...I think there is more caution and awareness of the health and safety thing that has been placed on schools..but I think 'back in the day', if a child was hurt and sometimes quite seriously, there wasn't so much of an awareness of...'oh I will sue you now, you allowed my child to be harmed in your care..'...but more...'well, children will be children ..'..obviously that's something that has to be balanced as well but isn't that a good thing..to take more precautions to prevent a child from being harmed...

..also prom queens/kings etc has always been a thing, it's just with media etc and reality programmes it probably seems much more but than before but it's always been there..I think that lots of things seem much more just because there was not the same TV/media/internet etc as there was 'back in the day..'....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...hmmm, I'm thinking about this..children do still play though, truth..at school I mean as well as out of school..in many schools they still play traditional type games like hopscotch, tag games etc..just the type of games that I would have played as a child...I think there is more caution and awareness of the health and safety thing that has been placed on schools..but I think 'back in the day', if a child was hurt and sometimes quite seriously, there wasn't so much of an awareness of...'oh I will sue you now, you allowed my child to be harmed in your care..'...but more...'well, children will be children ..'..obviously that's something that has to be balanced as well but isn't that a good thing..to take more precautions to prevent a child from being harmed...

..also prom queens/kings etc has always been a thing, it's just with media etc and reality programmes it probably seems much more but than before but it's always been there..I think that lots of things seem much more just because there was not the same TV/media/internet etc as there was 'back in the day..'....

I relly do strongly disagree.....these proms are rampant across every school at younger and younger ages , fortunes are spent by poor parents , limousines new dresses etc in some cases running to several hundred pounds expenses....this habit of the working classes blaming all headlines on the nasty London tabloids is a red herring. thank goodness we have a free press reporting it all....Alistair campbells comment last week on question time when he said any debate on Europe would be dangerous...was damning on the mindset of the new labour movement....give me a rabid right wing press over a censored silenced press muzzled by the radical left

kids are more obsess , fact, kids do play less fact, the parks are emptier fact, the youth clubs disappeared fact, more kids are on phones and computer for vast periods of time fact

and no im not a things were better in my day type of guy...I try to see progress and regress regardless of sentimentality.......science technology etc etc have all made enormous advances but at what expense? we seem to have lost a certain morality , we seem to have lost the fun and innocence of childhood...i used to play all day in the summer no need for phones and computers and im sure many did beforehand etc progress isn't always right. some traidtions are good, of course the hardcore liberals seem to have anything traditional and what to tear down society