[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have such a view of young people, they're smarter than many people give them credit for in my opinion. There are lots of young people on this forum who are very eloquent and think things through to the end. They also generally appreciate the freedoms this country gives them.

I agree Livia, if this forum is anything to go by, then I actually find many of the younger members to be much more open minded than many of the older members. Without naming names. :teehee:

Also my sister in law is 19 and has a wide range of friends, from geeks to "troubled teens" (she's one of their generation of people who all have something like 5000 Facebook "friends"), and I've seen discussions on her Facebook page get quite heated with plenty of differing viewpoints being offered up. I wouldn't call most of them very academic either, just normal kids but all quite clued up, and certainly not all following the crowd or agreeing with each other.

If anything I think young people now, the "internet generation", are much more skeptical and therefore much more resistant to propaganda or being lead by the media or the press than ever before.


I find that I personally occupy a very confusing space somewhere between genX and Y... Flipping and flopping between sparkly eyed idealism and bitter cynicism. Sigh!

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree Livia, if this forum is anything to go by, then I actually find many of the younger members to be much more open minded than many of the older members. Without naming names. :teehee:

Also my sister in law is 19 and has a wide range of friends, from geeks to "troubled teens" (she's one of their generation of people who all have something like 5000 Facebook "friends"), and I've seen discussions on her Facebook page get quite heated with plenty of differing viewpoints being offered up. I wouldn't call most of them very academic either, just normal kids but all quite clued up, and certainly not all following the crowd or agreeing with each other.

If anything I think young people now, the "internet generation", are much more skeptical and therefore much more resistant to propaganda or being lead by the media or the press than ever before.


I find that I personally occupy a very confusing space somewhere between genX and Y... Flipping and flopping between sparkly eyed idealism and bitter cynicism. Sigh!

I hope youre right and Im wrong

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

I hope youre right and Im wrong

I don't actually think you're wrong when it comes to schools, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm constantly horrified by my daughter's primary school and it's attempts to turn the kids into little conformist drones. I despise their "traffic light" punishment system, their insistence on holding bright kids back to keep in line with the lowest common denominator, and some of the things that I've heard of kids being punished for are mind boggling (clever kids finishing easy work "too quickly" losing out on playtime for "moaning too much" to the teacher that they were bored!). My view of the school system so far is that it is DESPERATE to homogenise young people. The school's mottos and goals, that they actually have painted on a wall outside, mention encouraging inquisitive minds and leadership qualities but I've seen absolutely no evidence of that. They encourage bland obedience and subordinance. We spend a good hour every day chatting to our daughter about her day after school and encouraging her to think critically about the things that have happened and what she actually thinks about them ("and do you think your teacher was right to do that?", "was that fair?" Etc.) just to ensure that she does remain an individual with opinions of her own, and not just a "but teacher sez".

However, I think that now more than ever (and the effect will hopefully only increase) young people today have access to an entire world of knowledge and opinions at their fingertips, and that is what makes the difference. We're bombarded with opinions of all sorts from all sides and that ensures that teenagers and young adults have little choice but to actually take a moment to think about who and what they agree with and where they stand. The days when mindsets can be influenced by blanket printed press propaganda are very limited, I think. I hope!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't actually think you're wrong when it comes to schools, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm constantly horrified by my daughter's primary school and it's attempts to turn the kids into little conformist drones. I despise their "traffic light" punishment system, their insistence on holding bright kids back to keep in line with the lowest common denominator, and some of the things that I've heard of kids being punished for are mind boggling (clever kids finishing easy work "too quickly" losing out on playtime for "moaning too much" to the teacher that they were bored!). My view of the school system so far is that it is DESPERATE to homogenise young people. The school's mottos and goals, that they actually have painted on a wall outside, mention encouraging inquisitive minds and leadership qualities but I've seen absolutely no evidence of that. They encourage bland obedience and subordinance. We spend a good hour every day chatting to our daughter about her day after school and encouraging her to think critically about the things that have happened and what she actually thinks about them ("and do you think your teacher was right to do that?", "was that fair?" Etc.) just to ensure that she does remain an individual with opinions of her own, and not just a "but teacher sez".

However, I think that now more than ever (and the effect will hopefully only increase) young people today have access to an entire world of knowledge and opinions at their fingertips, and that is what makes the difference. We're bombarded with opinions of all sorts from all sides and that ensures that teenagers and young adults have little choice but to actually take a moment to think about who and what they agree with and where they stand. The days when mindsets can be influenced by blanket printed press propaganda are very limited, I think. I hope!

Are you one of those parents who sit for well over the allotted time at parents evening while the line of waiting parents grows I agree with what you are saying in some ways and whilst critical thinking is great, I would also throw in that children need to learn respect, discipline and self restraint

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Are you one of those parents who sit for well over the allotted time at parents evening while the line of waiting parents grows I agree with what you are saying in some ways and whilst critical thinking is great, I would also throw in that children need to learn respect, discipline and self restraint

The two are not mutually exclusive, but interestingly enough, respect, discipline and self restraint REQUIRE critical thinking and autonomy. It's not respect if it's simple conformity, it's not restraint or discipline if there's no individual thought to keep restrained or under discipline. "Auto-pilot kids" aren't doing any of those things, they're just trundling along on preset rails. They might outwardly appear to be respectful, but if you quiz them on why it's important you get nonsensical answers like "because I don't want the teacher to put my name on yellow warning". Fear is not respect. And kids who are too advanced for the work that is being given to them being held back because little suzy can't count past ten yet is already inexcusable... To then punish them for coming forward and saying "this **** is too easy for me" is utter madness.

And nah, our parents evenings go pretty quickly... Her teacher is already abundantly aware of our thoughts and feelings on the traffic light system. We're THOSE annoying parents... The ones who get a letter asking us to reinforce the use of the traffic light system at home, and send a reply stating that we will happily reinforce that it is meaningless nonsense. Then set up a traffic light board in our daughter's room with only her teacher's name on it, so that she can choose each day how well her teacher behaved .

Yeah. We're pretty irritating.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The two are not mutually exclusive, but interestingly enough, respect, discipline and self restraint REQUIRE critical thinking and autonomy. It's not respect if it's simple conformity, it's not restraint or discipline if there's no individual thought to keep restrained or under discipline. "Auto-pilot kids" aren't doing any of those things, they're just trundling along on preset rails. They might outwardly appear to be respectful, but if you quiz them on why it's important you get nonsensical answers like "because I don't want the teacher to put my name on yellow warning". Fear is not respect. And kids who are too advanced for the work that is being given to them being held back because little suzy can't count past ten yet is already inexcusable... To then punish them for coming forward and saying "this **** is too easy for me" is utter madness.

And nah, our parents evenings go pretty quickly... Her teacher is already abundantly aware of our thoughts and feelings on the traffic light system. We're THOSE annoying parents... The ones who get a letter asking us to reinforce the use of the traffic light system at home, and send a reply stating that we will happily reinforce that it is meaningless nonsense. Then set up a traffic light board in our daughter's room with only her teacher's name on it, so that she can choose each day how well her teacher behaved .

Yeah. We're pretty irritating.

Is the Scottish system different to the English?, are the kids not put in "sets"as to their ability. Do you have SATS league tables, in England the focus is very much on extending the bright kids so the school will sit high in the league tables, sometimes to the detriment of the not so bright ones I have one of each a real high flyer, in all the top sets, gifted and talented, always the lead in school plays and then one who struggled with English and Science who was always pushed to the back during school plays and it was even suggested that he not take his year six science SATS exam, trust me that did not happen