[Vicky.]

Having a kind of personal dilemma about this at the moment and thought it might open up an interesting discussion. Do you think people of sound mind should have the option to die if they chose to?

My thinking is this. If their body was cooperating, they could kill themselves easily. So why is the option removed once your body gives up?

Basically, my uncle is dying. There is no cure that could help him realistically as is 95 years old. He is currently confined to a care home as he is bedridden...however his mind is completely there, like he doesn't have dementia or anything...yesterday he was talking about holidays we went on 20 years ago that my parents could barely remember. He is not in any pain currently however he has aggressive pancreatic cancer so the pain WILL come at some stage. The care home are ready for this and already have painkillers set up so they can sort if quickly. However, he is basically bedridden waiting for death to come. He has started refusing his medication in the hope that a stroke or heart attack gets him fast. my brother went to see him last week and he asked my brother to 'please just help me die'...

Do you think in this instance...it should be allowed? I don't mean family smothering them with a pillow or something but maybe an overdose of morphine so they go peacefully?

I know there is controversy surrounding this...but I genuinely cannot see how anyone could think that whats happening to people like my uncle is ok. Obviously when dementia and such is involved it becomes a very grey area as the mind is not totally there so they may not know what they are asking for.

Obviously my uncle is not in any fit state to fly to Switzerland to Dignitas. As his body has completely given up. So his only option is to lie in a bed in a carehome and count down the minutes until death. Hopefully it will be soon, stats say it should be but what if he is one who survives it for years? The thought is just horrendous tbh...

Basically I think our laws around assisted suicide are ****ed up. It should be decided on a case by case basis IMO, rather than a blanket ban.

I cannot go to see my uncle alone as if he asks me to help him, I know I will be really tempted to do it, to end his suffering. And I know I would be arrested for it and have to leave my children.

[Jay28jay2]

I completely agree that we should have Euthanasia legalised for the right reasons

[Niamh.]

I agree with it in theory but there would have to be really tight laws around it I think.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes, we do it for dogs so we should so it for humans too.

[Vicky.]

Well yes, I reckon a decent law would be to have 2 independent doctors verify that their mind is sound and they know what they are actually asking for. I don't think family should have any involvement/say in it, it should be between the patient and professionals. Meaning, if the doctors verified their mind was sound and that, the family could NOT argue against the patients wishes.

[Littlegreen]

Firstly so sorry about your uncle.

I definitely believe the laws need to be looked at when it comes to euthanasia.

If it's decided by the person and they are fully aware of the decision, that should be it. It's just downright evil that a law prevents a dying person having that last little bit of respect.

[Niamh.]

The only issue I'd have really is family members who maybe aren't so caring guilting elderly people into doing it so they get inheritance or something like that

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The only issue I'd have really is family members who maybe aren't so caring guilting elderly people into doing it so they get inheritance or something like that

Yes this could be an issue, however..I guess this could be an issue even without euthanasia laws. Family could currently guilt relatives into not taking meds that they need...they could guilt rich relatives into committing suicide if they aren't bedridden by that stage.

Such a difficult area. I have obviously been thinking about it a lot over the past 2 days and I don't see an answer that would be perfect, but nothing would ever be perfect. Everything is open to abuse really. Is it worth changing things so 999 people can die with dignity like they want whilst 1 slips through the net who has been guilted into it? Or do we keep 999 people in pain on the off chance that the 1 persons family are horrible people who would do that...

I think possibly the law could say only people with terminal illnesses or at a stage in their illness where the pain and suffering is totally unbearable and very unlikely to get any better. That way even if someone is guilted into it..its still a good thing for the person who will otherwise be in pain? if that makes sense :S

[RichardG]

100% it should be introduced

Most suicide attempts fail and leave the person in an even worse state, and those who do succeed usually face super high levels of pain during the process. Let them die peacefully and safely instead.

[Underscore]

Yes, with consent from doctor and the patient.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes this could be an issue, however..I guess this could be an issue even without euthanasia laws. Family could currently guilt relatives into not taking meds that they need...they could guilt rich relatives into committing suicide if they aren't bedridden by that stage.

Such a difficult area. I have obviously been thinking about it a lot over the past 2 days and I don't see an answer that would be perfect, but nothing would ever be perfect. Everything is open to abuse really. Is it worth changing things so 999 people can die with dignity like they want whilst 1 slips through the net who has been guilted into it? Or do we keep 999 people in pain on the off chance that the 1 persons family are horrible people who would do that...

I think possibly the law could say only people with terminal illnesses or at a stage in their illness where the pain and suffering is totally unbearable and very unlikely to get any better. That way even if someone is guilted into it..its still a good thing for the person who will otherwise be in pain? if that makes sense :S

Yeah it does and that you'd have a medical doctor and a psychiatrist assess them as well, you'd hope a psychiatrist might have an idea if the patient felt pressured rather than really wanted it. It's awful to even think like that but people are horrible sometimes and the elderly and especially the very sick elderly are so vulnerable

[smudgie]

I am all for it.
Only the professionals should have any say in it as it could all become a bit open to abuse if family and friends had a say.
Once a patient is beyond help, is on a syringe driver to administer morphine etc then it would be easy enough for the patient to drift off peacefully.
I do believe this already happens...unofficially of course.

[joeysteele]

Oh this is always a hard issue.
It's an awful dilemma in your scenario Vicky, not a nice place to be at all.

I drift on this, between the right to die of the individual which I understand and agree should be their decision.
Alongside the then carrying it out,by whom and under what arrangements.

The dignitas arrangement is it appears one that works so maybe what's needed here is such a facility.
However, strict controlling is essential.
Of and as to the decision and also of professionals too.

How to arrive at that point is the stumbling block.

Really someone relatively fit and mobile who wished to end their life could do so.
That's their choice,whatever way they set out to enact that.
It's not supported but they have the Independent ability to do so.

For me then,someone terminally Ill,really aged or unable to do much or anything for themself,with clear thinking should be able to request the ending of their lives.
Only,and I stress only,if they really want to.
Hard one.

Doctors could have agendas,family could too.
How to be really sure it is what the person wants would have to be the most vital of elements for it.

Strict controlling could be near impossible so perhaps looking at the dignitas model would be a start.
I always find this a difficult issue, the rights of an individual to request to die,against all the possible manipulations and possible unsavoury reasons someone may come to think this is all that's left to do.

In principle I support it, however making sure it's handled correctly is a separate issue of which at present,I'm not sure could not be open to possible wrongdoing or manipulation.

Really awful that anyone should be suffering in any way,physically,mentally or emotionally in the last period of their lives.

[RichardG]

my grandad died of pulmonary fibrosis, a complication of his rheumatoid arthritis that he had for 20 years which already put him in significant pain. i'd never heard of it beforehand but basically his lungs started to harden and therefore slowly lost elasticity, meaning they were able to expand less and less and therefore he was slowly suffocating to death. in his final few months i had a panic attack at one point just watching him bc it was the most horrific thing i'd ever seen, his breathing was so shallow it was making me feel physical pain just watching him. if i was diagnosed with pf or any other horrible terminal disease then i would likely seek out assisted suicide. no way would i want to sit back and suffocate to death over a period of two years like he did. it should be made available to all.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by RichardG

my grandad died of pulmonary fibrosis, a complication of his rheumatoid arthritis that he had for 20 years which already put him in significant pain. i'd never heard of it beforehand but basically his lungs started to harden and therefore slowly lost elasticity, meaning they were able to expand less and less and therefore he was slowly suffocating to death. in his final few months i had a panic attack at one point just watching him bc it was the most horrific thing i'd ever seen, his breathing was so shallow it was making me feel physical pain just watching him. if i was diagnosed with pf or any other horrible terminal disease then i would likely seek out assisted suicide. no way would i want to sit back and suffocate to death over a period of two years like he did. it should be made available to all.

That's really heart wrenching.
That argument for it would sway me to support it for sure.

That's very sad and really compelling read Richard.
Awful.

[jaxie]

I'm sorry to hear about your uncle's health, I hope they can manage his pain when it happens.

I think euthanasia should be 100% down to the individual if they of sound mind and to the doctors if they aren't. If there is no hope of recovery what is the point of prolonging pain?

[y.winter]

It should be legalized, living is not worth it when the pain and suffering is unbearable.
A few years ago there was a doco accompanying a man suffering from alzheimer who went to Dignitas, and while it's a sad story, it looked like the right decision.

[Livia]

If people are of sound mind, how and when to end their own life is their own business. It's more complicated when people lose mental capacity through age or illness or both, and no one should ever be allowed to die on the wishes of their family alone (in the case of the family inheriting, or the elderly relative just being an inconvenience). Being told you're not allowed to end your own suffering, but live out your days in agony because someone making the legislation feels that way, is dispicable.

[Kizzy]

I can't agree, I say make people as comfortable as possible but the thought of being party to ending someones life is just somehow abhorrent to me, I find it hard to explain how.

From a soul kind of way, that makes no sense I know but that's the best I've got.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I can't agree, I say make people as comfortable as possible but the thought of being party to ending someones life is just somehow abhorrent to me, I find it hard to explain how.

From a soul kind of way, that makes no sense I know but that's the best I've got.

I'd say it's up to mentally sound people to choose who they end their lives. What's abhorrent to me is dictating to people how they get to spend their last few days even if they're in unbearable pain.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Redway

I'd say it's up to mentally sound people to choose who they end their lives. What's abhorrent to me is dictating to people how they get to spend their last few days even if they're in unbearable pain.

Good for you, I didn't expect anyone to feel the way I do.

I'm not advacating 'dictating' anything, if people wish to refuse treatment they can and do.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Having a kind of personal dilemma about this at the moment and thought it might open up an interesting discussion. Do you think people of sound mind should have the option to die if they chose to?

My thinking is this. If their body was cooperating, they could kill themselves easily. So why is the option removed once your body gives up?

Basically, my uncle is dying. There is no cure that could help him realistically as is 95 years old. He is currently confined to a care home as he is bedridden...however his mind is completely there, like he doesn't have dementia or anything...yesterday he was talking about holidays we went on 20 years ago that my parents could barely remember. He is not in any pain currently however he has aggressive pancreatic cancer so the pain WILL come at some stage. The care home are ready for this and already have painkillers set up so they can sort if quickly. However, he is basically bedridden waiting for death to come. He has started refusing his medication in the hope that a stroke or heart attack gets him fast. my brother went to see him last week and he asked my brother to 'please just help me die'...

Do you think in this instance...it should be allowed? I don't mean family smothering them with a pillow or something but maybe an overdose of morphine so they go peacefully?

I know there is controversy surrounding this...but I genuinely cannot see how anyone could think that whats happening to people like my uncle is ok. Obviously when dementia and such is involved it becomes a very grey area as the mind is not totally there so they may not know what they are asking for.

Obviously my uncle is not in any fit state to fly to Switzerland to Dignitas. As his body has completely given up. So his only option is to lie in a bed in a carehome and count down the minutes until death. Hopefully it will be soon, stats say it should be but what if he is one who survives it for years? The thought is just horrendous tbh...

Basically I think our laws around assisted suicide are ****ed up. It should be decided on a case by case basis IMO, rather than a blanket ban.

I cannot go to see my uncle alone as if he asks me to help him, I know I will be really tempted to do it, to end his suffering. And I know I would be arrested for it and have to leave my children.

Yes Vicky , Of Sound Mind - --You Have Rights


In USA
there was a Doctor that did it
he set it all up and left them
to push the liquid mix

He got banned

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Having a kind of personal dilemma about this at the moment and thought it might open up an interesting discussion. Do you think people of sound mind should have the option to die if they chose to?

My thinking is this. If their body was cooperating, they could kill themselves easily. So why is the option removed once your body gives up?

Basically, my uncle is dying. There is no cure that could help him realistically as is 95 years old. He is currently confined to a care home as he is bedridden...however his mind is completely there, like he doesn't have dementia or anything...yesterday he was talking about holidays we went on 20 years ago that my parents could barely remember. He is not in any pain currently however he has aggressive pancreatic cancer so the pain WILL come at some stage. The care home are ready for this and already have painkillers set up so they can sort if quickly. However, he is basically bedridden waiting for death to come. He has started refusing his medication in the hope that a stroke or heart attack gets him fast. my brother went to see him last week and he asked my brother to 'please just help me die'...

Do you think in this instance...it should be allowed? I don't mean family smothering them with a pillow or something but maybe an overdose of morphine so they go peacefully?

I know there is controversy surrounding this...but I genuinely cannot see how anyone could think that whats happening to people like my uncle is ok. Obviously when dementia and such is involved it becomes a very grey area as the mind is not totally there so they may not know what they are asking for.

Obviously my uncle is not in any fit state to fly to Switzerland to Dignitas. As his body has completely given up. So his only option is to lie in a bed in a carehome and count down the minutes until death. Hopefully it will be soon, stats say it should be but what if he is one who survives it for years? The thought is just horrendous tbh...

Basically I think our laws around assisted suicide are ****ed up. It should be decided on a case by case basis IMO, rather than a blanket ban.

I cannot go to see my uncle alone as if he asks me to help him, I know I will be really tempted to do it, to end his suffering. And I know I would be arrested for it and have to leave my children.

I went through the same feelings with my dad, he didn't ask me to help him die, but the indignity of his condition killed a proud man well before the cancer did .
It was the help and advice of the macmillan nurses that saw us through, could you not speak to his doctor? They might be able to assist with something alongside a painkiller.

Realistically at 95 with pancreatic cancer his body will most likely yield to that quickly which is cold comfort I know

[user104658]

If someone has lived for nearly a century, will definitely die soon anyway, and wants to do so quickly and painlessly, then in my opinion it shouldn't only be possible for them to do so - it's actually immoral to STOP them if it's what they want. By which I mean the law itself, not the family members, who really have to abide by the law in these situations sadly.

My personal take on it would be that there should be three conditions;

1) The person has an incurable condition with months to live, confirmed by 3 separate unconnected doctors.

2) Their death will be slow / painful if not accelerated.

3) It's what they want - EITHER being of sound mind at the time, or in dementia cases etc. there should be a requirement of having previously made those wishes explicitly clear.


I can see no possible moral argument for disallowing it in those cases. The person is going to die anyway, and natural death is NOT always a case of slipping away peacefully during sleep. It's a horrible ****ing mess of anxiety, blood-gurgling, losing control of bodily functions and gasping in a panic for those final breaths that will never come. No matter how many painkillers you fill someone with.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I went through the same feelings with my dad, he didn't ask me to help him die, but the indignity of his condition killed a proud man well before the cancer did .
It was the help and advice of the macmillan nurses that saw us through, could you not speak to his doctor? They might be able to assist with something alongside a painkiller.

Realistically at 95 with pancreatic cancer his body will most likely yield to that quickly which is cold comfort I know

Yes, got a call last night that he had died. My answer without thinking was 'good' which has made me feel awful all over again tbh.

I do wonder how long this would have gone on for if he hadn't taken it into his own hands as much as he could...as it was the refusal of medication that seems to have got him in the end as it was a heart attack. Which was his plan.

Obviously wouldn't have gone on for years, but could have been another month or so.