[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Did India get her operation on the NHS?

Yes . And Rachel at the time asked Ann's thoughts on that . And that's how the whole debate started . And India won't let go of it , they had that disagreement a month ago ! .

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This constant going on about suicide rates is contrary to the samaritans advice on suicide you know. Suicide is often a social contagion. If you tell a group of people they are likely to commit suicide (especially a group of people with higher than average mental health problems), it actually raises the chances of them committing suicide.

As for the OP, India did not really say that. It may have been implied, but I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Was no need for her to have a random go at Ann mind, but I guess she could not help herself. Ann ended her either way though so..meh

Well the rates have to be high in the first place to then be told to those people you’re likely to commit sucide right?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marches

Well the rates have to be high in the first place to then be told to those people you’re likely to commit sucide right?

If what Vicky is says is correct though, they're not allowing any proper research into whether or not having the operation actually reduces suicide rates amongst Transgenders (That is what you've said before Vicky, right?) I wonder what the logic behind that is, it's certainly not the way to tackle the problem amongst this group of people

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

yeah

Well that I don't agree with because she could quite easily afford it herself.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marches

Well the rates have to be high in the first place to then be told to those people you’re likely to commit sucide right?

Not really. Lets say that tomorrow a rumour was started that blonde people are more likely to kill themselves than non-blondes. This was then repeated all over the place, had place in national newspapers and such. When a blonde person is having a hard time (or maybe develops depression) they could be more likely to actually try to commit suicide, as they know that thats what people like them do.

Suicide rates among transpeople are pretty high to start with (possibly due to co-morbid mental health issues, possibly due to how society treats them). The endless repeating of the suicide stats (and in many cases manipulation of suicide stats to make them look higher than they are) will not help matters at all.

https://www.samaritans.org/media-cen...-key-phenomena

I actually did not know any of this as little as 3 months back. It shocked me how stuff like this could have such an effect.

Search suicide contagion...if you have a few hours to get lost in it. I spent like a whole day reading articles about it.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Yes . And Rachel at the time asked Ann's thoughts on that . And that's how the whole debate started . And India won't let go of it , they had that disagreement a month ago ! .

I'd forgotten the **** stirring Rachel used to do. Pity she was evicted.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Well that I don't agree with because she could quite easily afford it herself.

She didn't actually say either why she did that ,at the time she never said why she didn't go private .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Not really. Lets say that tomorrow a rumour was started that blonde people are more likely to kill themselves than non-blondes. This was then repeated all over the place, had place in national newspapers and such. When a blonde person is having a hard time (or maybe develops depression) they could be more likely to actually try to commit suicide, as they know that thats what people like them do.

Suicide rates among transpeople are pretty high to start with (possibly due to co-morbid mental health issues, possibly due to how society treats them). The endless repeating of the suicide stats (and in many cases manipulation of suicide stats to make them look higher than they are) will not help matters at all.

https://www.samaritans.org/media-cen...-key-phenomena

I actually did not know any of this as little as 3 months back. It shocked me how stuff like this could have such an effect.

My daughter is thinking about becoming a Dentist and she told me the other day that apparently Dentists are one of the top professions when it comes to suicide rates :/ I don't know where she heard it from but suddenly she was thinking "Oh god, should I do it still?" (although the first thing I thought was my cousin who committed suicide was a Dentist )

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I'd forgotten the **** stirring Rachel used to do. Pity she was evicted.

I found her a bit shady like she was trying to instigate fights and sit back and watch . I know people find that entertainment but it got boring .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

If what Vicky is says is correct though, they're not allowing any proper research into whether or not having the operation actually reduces suicide rates amongst Transgenders (That is what you've said before Vicky, right?) I wonder what the logic behind that is, it's certainly not the way to tackle the problem amongst this group of people

Near all research into the whole thing is blocked. Theres a guy having to crowdfund to do research into detransitioners because the University blocked what he was wanting to do because it would be 'politically incorrect'. There does not seem to be many (if any) recent long term followups of these people. When of course there should be.

Media reporting and such is really really detrimental. If you tell a group of people they have a 50% chance of attempting suicide repeatedly, it does get into their heads and make matters worse and is likely to actually raise the suicide rates of the group involved. Hence the samaritans guidelines on media reporting of suicides.

(The suicide rate rising after surgery though, seems to be based on older studies. As no recent ones have been done. I did not know this until someone posted a link about it yesterday as the only study I have ever read did show that long term, surgery really does not help)

With more and more people identifying as trans, research really really needs to be done into it. Especially when so many kids are saying they are the opposite sex too. Honestly, the kids saying they are trans really strikes me as...its trendy right now. Like when I was at school everyone was 'bi' as thats just what was the trend at the time (not saying sexuality is a choice, but I am sure people will understand what is meant here) and before that it was everyone was a punk, or whatever. Those were harmless 'trends' though, where this trans thing is not harmless as if medicated it can effect you for the rest of your life.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Near all research into the whole thing is blocked. Theres a guy having to crowdfund to do research into detransitioners because the University blocked what he was wanting to do because it would be 'politically incorrect'. There does not seem to be many (if any) recent long term followups of these people. When of course there should be.

Media reporting and such is really really detrimental. If you tell a group of people they have a 50% chance of attempting suicide repeatedly, it does get into their heads and make matters worse and is likely to actually raise the suicide rates of the group involved. Hence the samaritans guidelines on media reporting of suicides.

That's just outrageous though, you would assume that with something as drastic as SRS, that it would have to be fully investigated to find out whether this actually solves or atleast improves things mentally for Transgenders **** political correctness, medicine and science should never be dictated to by anything other than facts

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's just outrageous though, you would assume that with something as drastic as SRS, that it would have to be fully investigated to find out whether this actually solves or atleast improves things mentally for Transgenders **** political correctness, medicine and science should never be dictated to by anything other than facts

Yes.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/up...-universities/

The crowdfunder and the reasons for it^

I am a counsellor and trainer specialising for over a decade in working with transgendered people. I became aware that there appear to be a growing number of people who have sought to reverse the surgery they had as part of a gender transition. As part of a Masters degree at Bath Spa University I applied for permission to research this group to find out more. Gender Reassignment Surgery includes surgery to the genitals, and for women changing to male, often removal of the breasts. I wanted to talk to the people who regretted their GRS and then had surgery to try to reverse the original surgery. There is no research into this phenomenon, and it is needed to develop insight into why this is happening and to learn from these peoples’ experiences. I was invited by the hosts to bring my findings to the European Professional Association of Transgender Health conference in Belgrade in 2017. This was not to happen, as the university vetoed my research.

In November 2016 Bath Spa University refused my re-application, fundamentally on the basis that it might attract unpleasant comments on social media, which they said might be detrimental to the reputation of the university. In January 2017 there was a final ruling which supported this decision.

And a variety of news sources, pick which is your fave I guess

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-comments.html

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...ersal-research

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7965281.html

---

Its all mental to me. it really is. Any and all research into this should be welcomed by all. Its very serious and should be understood more.

And of course longterm followups should be done to check that these treatment regimes really are effective in helping people.

I seem to have taken this thread offtopic now

[Vicky.]

Since this is offtopic anyway (not sure if I should delete my own posts here or not?)

https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-...spian-talk.pdf

This is Caspians speech when this matter was taken to parliament. I challenge anyone reading that to deem him transphobic, rather than actually caring about his patients and their wellbeing.

[Niamh.]

The thing about it is, that surely if you are a transgender person you would want this studied before you go and have major surgery?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The thing about it is, that surely if you are a transgender person you would want this studied before you go and have major surgery?

Indeed. I think this is why transsexual people are not against such research, but 'transactivists' are. Most transactivists are just angry young males (generally 'lesbian' too...so heterosexual males). Who do not actually have gender dysphoria (its transphobic these days to say that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans..believe it or not) and have no plans to transition, besides saying 'I am a woman' and expecting to be taken at facevalue.

Its all such a huge mess. The ever expanding label of 'transgender' does not help matters at all. As transsexual people are lumped in with fetishists and people who simply do not follow stereotypes. Where obviously transsexuality is a totally different ballgame to either of those groups.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The thing about it is, that surely if you are a transgender person you would want this studied before you go and have major surgery?

The thing is and I'll probably get people jumping at my throat here , I wonder how many are actually happy post op . And how many regret it or wish they had more support and help before hand to make sure it's what they really want.

And I disagree with trans kids wanting gender reassignment so early in their life , their brains aren't fully developed yet. By all means if they are still unhappy in their body and want to still have the operation when they're 18 then fair enough .

I also wonder how much research was done with Lili Elbe who was one of the very first transgender women, I didn't even know they did those operations back then .

[Lstan]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

If what Vicky is says is correct though, they're not allowing any proper research into whether or not having the operation actually reduces suicide rates amongst Transgenders (That is what you've said before Vicky, right?) I wonder what the logic behind that is, it's certainly not the way to tackle the problem amongst this group of people

This is why its a pricky issue-I follow and have spoken to detransitioned people who have said that what they really needed was help with mental issues which is a conversation we had on here a few weeks ago (about the nhs and how mental heath) there is also the issue now of those being wrongly diagnosed as being trans

For many "transitioning" neither helps with dysphoria but also its a bit of the grass is greener on the other side senario-they end up being disappointed that their life isnt how they expected it to be after transition. Which is why its been suggested, and i agree, we need more research and solutions if we truly want to hep trans people and others with mental heath conditions.

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Did anyone else here this? When Ann said Kids with Cancer or blind people should have the higher priority with NHS then trans people and India said that the views on who Ann thinks are a priority are not the same as her.

What a scummy person preceding kids to suffer with Cancer then pay for things she should have done privately

She did ‘t say that though. India said people had different priorities depending what their situation is. I think the example Ann used was carraract operations - not cancer ops for kids! You’re making this up. Fake news.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Bluelight

She did ‘t say that though. India said people had different priorities depending what their situation is. I think the example Ann used was carraract operations - not cancer ops for kids! You’re making this up. Fake news.

Yeah Ann even said one of the other hm's mentioned cancer not her .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Lstan

This is why its a pricky issue-I follow and have spoken to detransitioned people who have said that what they really needed was help with mental issues which is a conversation we had on here a few weeks ago (about the nhs and how mental heath) there is also the issue now of those being wrongly diagnosed as being trans

For many "transitioning" neither helps with dysphoria but also its a bit of the grass is greener on the other side senario-they end up being disappointed that their life isnt how they expected it to be after transition. Which is why its been suggested, and i agree, we need more research and solutions if we truly want to hep trans people and others with mental heath conditions.

Yes. I have read a lot about detransitioners and it seems to be the same story. How its too easy and pretty much pushed as the only option to have hormones and such. When for so many people, working through the issues of why they actually want to be the opposite sex would help a lot more. Apparently a LOT FtM people have been sexually abused/raped or have Autism. I can understand why becoming a man would be an attractive prospect for someone who has been abused. It would most likely stop the chance of it happening again. The Autism link is quite interesting too. From what I know Autistic people are more likely to be sticklers for 'rules', and the 'rules' of femininity or masculinity are pushed at people from all angles. So if they have interests and such that are usually associated with the opposite sex, I can see why they would think this would actually make them the opposite sex.

People like to make out detransitioners are as rare as hens teeth. This is not exactly true. There was a survey done actually fairly recently (I think it was last year) on FtM detransitioners and from the results of that, it appeared that many of them did not have the counselling and such that should clearly have been done and hormones etc were pretty much thrown at them instantly (some claimed they had had no counselling at all). And then of course you have the added issue of 'transgender/transactivist' people online encouraging trans people to buy hormones off the internet as there is too much 'gatekeeping' when done the correct way.

As I said, all a huge mess right now.

I have a trans family member and it only took them 3 appointments of an hour a time before they were offered hormones. This is no way long enough to be able to do indepth assessments to see that this is the right treatment choice. Now it does seem (so far) that this was the correct treatment for them personally, though they also had to arrange their own counselling sessions as the 'rules' state that only 'affirmation' is acceptable and this was not what they wanted. They had hormones (and a boob job) to help alleviate the dysphoria about their sexed body..but they also wanted therapy to come to terms with never being able to actually be the opposite sex. They went through loads and loads of therapists before they found one willing to take the approach that they wanted rather than the whole 'oh you ARE the opposite sex hun x' type crap.

[Lstan]

@ Vicky this is why the detransitioners I know have become highly critical of the whole gender thing, the money making industry behind the surgery boom and of the language and the idea that biological sex is somehow offensive. I'm really not someone who likes to upset people but I think this whole issue is why people no onger have tolerance and are tired of it

India is the perfect example of the type of transwoman people have an issue with. No one cared that India was trans, but India had to be center of attention, India had to have had it the hardest, India had to be the most womanist woman ever and shove it in everyones faces. Sorry if this is a harsh thing to say but doing that is not going to make people sympathise with you, its going to make everyone think you're an a******

But yes to everything you, Niamh and GoldHeart said.

[Paula D]

I think India was very unhappy with her transition to be honest.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I think India was very unhappy with her transition to be honest.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I think some trans people are unhappy after the operation .

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Yes . And Rachel at the time asked Ann's thoughts on that . And that's how the whole debate started . And India won't let go of it , they had that disagreement a month ago ! .

Yes and India was still banging on about it on The Wright Stuff this morning, she just won't let it go.

[Binbin]

'India' is probably a little bit mental, which might explain the strange appearance.