[bots]

Israel took out 1000 infrastructure targets last night alone. While hamas still have the will to continue, their ability to do so has been surgically cut off. Now it's a case of neutralising the threats within Israel itself and then making sure that none of the other hostile entities that surround them take advantage.

Getting back the hostages is going to be priority number one shortly i would have thought

[arista]

Sadly Some Prisoners
being held in Gaza
have died, because of Israeli Fighter Jet Bombs

SkyNewsHD Live

[arista]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

The best result for everyone involved (especially Palestinians) would be the rapid removal of Hamas.

But they were Elected.

[arista]

[Israel orders 'complete siege' of Gaza,
cutting off food and electricity,
and prepares for massive ground offensive
'within 48 hours' in response to
Jewish state's 'worst day in history'

Israel continued to relentlessly pound the
Gaza strip this morning with air strikes
Israel Palestine war LIVE: Jewish state prepares
massive ground offensive]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ish-state.html

[user104658]

All but guaranteeing the creation of a new generation of extremists. The wheel keeps on turning.

[The Slim Reaper]

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

Yes,
they are turning off power
to flush out Hamas gunmen

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes,
they are turning off power
to flush out Hamas gunmen

They've been turning off power and water, including cementing the wells that provide water to Palestinians for a long, long time. Same with electricity and the absolute most basic of human rights.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

I'm saying that the death of innocent civilians when the bombs start dropping is what opens people up to radicalisation in general; when you create a situation where people have nothing to lose, you all but guarantee it. Trying to frame (at least semi) organised elements like Hamas and Hezbollah as anything other than extremist is disingenuous - they clearly do utilise weaponised extremism - but the pictures above paint a stark picture of why people can be taken down that path.

As for whether it's a war or occupation, I'd actually go as far as to say it's basically historically unique (not this conflict; the entire history of modern Israel). It was a terrible idea at the time, it was carried out as a kneejerk solution after WW2, and it remains a terrible idea to this day. I can't think of any example of anything even vaguely similar politically, currently or throughout history.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

They've been turning off power and water, including cementing the wells that provide water to Palestinians for a long, long time. Same with electricity and the absolute most basic of human rights.

Not in a State of War



Hamas attacked them on a Holiday
they were not prepared

[user104658]

Originally Posted by arista

Not in a State of War

Intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime arista. Which of course makes both sides guilty of war crimes here - but it's not "an eye for an eye"... a war crime is a war crime.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I'm saying that the death of innocent civilians when the bombs start dropping is what opens people up to radicalisation in general; when you create a situation where people have nothing to lose, you all but guarantee it. Trying to frame (at least semi) organised elements like Hamas and Hezbollah as anything other than extremist is disingenuous - they clearly do utilise weaponised extremism - but the pictures above paint a stark picture of why people can be taken down that path.

As for whether it's a war or occupation, I'd actually go as far as to say it's basically historically unique (not this conflict; the entire history of modern Israel). It was a terrible idea at the time, it was carried out as a kneejerk solution after WW2, and it remains a terrible idea to this day. I can't think of any example of anything even vaguely similar politically, currently or throughout history.

This is exactly what they've been living through already though. What is about to happen to them is a more concentrated version of their daily lives.

Here's the issue; elements of Hamas are undoubtedly motivated by extremism, and yet they're the only people providing charity and welfare to these people. painting them completely as a bunch of terrorists makes things neat and tidy to ignore the absolute and real terrorist actors, which is the Israeli government. Ukraine are freedom fighters, yet Palestinians are terrorist is pure western make believe.

A powerless people only has "terror" available as a come back. They have nothing else. The withdrawal of the basic things needed to sustain life by an occupier, is pure terrorism.

The fact it's an occupation is not really up for debate. I agree with some of what you say regarding the drawing of maps by Western powers ultimately coming back to haunt us, but we do have parallels from fairly recent history, such as the intentional starving of the Irish by the British government during the famine, and more specifically to scale, with the apartheid regime of south Africa.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

This is exactly what they've been living through, already though. What is about to happen to them is a more concentrated version of their daily lives.

Here's the issue; elements of Hamas are undoubtedly motivated by extremism, and yet they're the only people providing charity and welfare to these people. painting them completely as a bunch of terrorists makes things neat and tidy to ignore the absolute and real terrorist actors, which is the Israeli government. Ukraine are freedom fighters, yet Palestinians are terrorist is pure western make believe.

A powerless people only has "terror" available as a come back. They have nothing else. The withdrawal of the basic things needed to sustain life by an occupier, is pure terrorism.

The fact it's an occupation is not really up for debate. I agree with some of what you say regarding the drawing of maps by Western powers ultimately coming back to haunt us, but we do have parallels from fairly recent history, such as the intentional starving of the Irish by the British government during the famine, and more specifically to scale, with the apartheid regime of south Africa.

I do get what you're saying but the actions taken and the methods used by the Palestinians who crossed the border can't be justified and I feel this flirts a little close to justification above and beyond explanation. I accept it as inevitable and I accept it as an accurate description of the explanation, but have to totally reject the torture and murder of civilians as justified, even when retaliatory.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime arista. Which of course makes both sides guilty of war crimes here - but it's not "an eye for an eye"... a war crime is a war crime.

Israeli Fighter Jets are targeting buildings with Hamas in.

[Cherie]

When Hamas crossed the border what did they think would happen they have put 'their own people' in the line of fire now, its not going to solve anything, they are just acting like barbarians because they can

[Crimson Dynamo]

diversity
multiculturalism

[arista]

Originally Posted by Cherie

When Hamas crossed the border what did they think would happen they have put 'their own people' in the line of fire now, its not going to solve anything, they are just acting like barbarians because they can

Yes sadly true,
Saturday was a Holy Holiday
Hamas picked that day
to murder more Israeli's

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Cherie

When Hamas crossed the border what did they think would happen they have put 'their own people' in the line of fire now, its not going to solve anything, they are just acting like barbarians because they can

They put their own people in danger every time they fire a rocket into Israel from a hospital or a school.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

They put their own people in danger every time they fire a rocket into Israel from a hospital or a school.

Absolutely.
A point regularly missed is that.

[Denver]

At least 3 Brits are among those dead with 7 more missing and presumed dead

[Denver]

Hezbollah has said if The USA get involved then they will attack them, both Hezbollah and Hamas are known to have huge sleeper cells in the country.

Hopefully the UK stay way clear, its not our war and we can't afford to go into this

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Denver

Hezbollah has said if The USA get involved then they will attack them, both Hezbollah and Hamas are known to have huge sleeper cells in the country.

Hopefully the UK stay way clear, its not our war and we can't afford to go into this

How many people of unknown origin have we let into this country in the last couple of years? If I was a terrorist leader I'd make sure as many of my people were shipped in as possible.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Livia

They put their own people in danger every time they fire a rocket into Israel from a hospital or a school.

fighting, fighting, fighting


more than 40 years now, and tbf Israel also just goes along with that, not trying to come with some form of a compromise to make this war stop



but no, i'm also not defending Hamas either, obviously, them continuing to attack Israel is indeed putting their own innocents in danger



Liv, honestly Israel kinda also has had its share of being called problematic, getting banned out of AFC, hence why they became a member of the UEFA, after they had troubled relationships with Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi, yes i happen to know this (thx to wikipedia)

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I do get what you're saying but the actions taken and the methods used by the Palestinians who crossed the border can't be justified and I feel this flirts a little close to justification above and beyond explanation. I accept it as inevitable and I accept it as an accurate description of the explanation, but have to totally reject the torture and murder of civilians as justified, even when retaliatory.

So lets reject all the murder and torture of civilians, because if this hadn't been happening over the last few decades then yesterday wouldn't have happened.

The Israeli army have been murdering and torturing children for decades with the tacit approval of our government, and by extension, us citizens, and It's always been crickets. Until folks really get to grips with the conditions and what is actually going on there, I find it really difficult to take the ivory tower pontificating on what is or is not terror or appropriate to be little more than obfuscation.We pretend one form of decades-long attacks like the ones seen 2 days ago just isn't important, but we get (rightly) outraged, when we see civilians massacred the other way round. My position is consistent; it's the folks who play these pretend games about Israel that provide the terror justifications, not me seeing the whole situation for what it is.

I'm not patriotic in any way because it's all an accident of birth as far as I'm concerned, but I'm self aware enough to Know that if the Romans turned up tomorrow and turfed me out of my house, put me in an open air prison, murdered generations of my family, stripped away any rights I had to participate in a society, I'd be fully radicalised to undertake whatever it took to hit back against any and all of my oppressors, and I think most people would.

Can already see the 2001 bloodlust returning in this thread.

[Iceman]

Hamburg Airport was put on lockdown for an hour there. Apparently an email threat from Iran. Looks to be back open now.