[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

Imane is not a male though. She has been cleared to fight by the Olympic committee, not pride.

Genetic advantages are genetic advantages. They may manifest in totally different variations, but they absolutely exist, and give one competitor a massive advantage over another. She has lost 9 fights - she does not have any kind of advantage. This happened because an Italian woman gave up, and because she was probably embarrassed went on the attack (pity she didn't do that in the ring, but hey), and was fortunate enough to have found solace in the arms of Joanne.

I don't want to see a man fighting women, and so it's good that it isn't happening.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Imane is not a male though. She has been cleared to fight by the Olympic committee, not pride.

Genetic advantages are genetic advantages. They may manifest in totally different variations, but they absolutely exist, and give one competitor a massive advantage over another. She has lost 9 fights - she does not have any kind of advantage. This happened because an Italian woman gave up, and because she was probably embarrassed went on the attack (pity she didn't do that in the ring, but hey), and was fortunate enough to have found solace in the arms of Joanne.

I don't want to see a man fighting women, and so it's good that it isn't happening.

There's no need for the sarcasm. It was IBA who claimed that both the fighters in question had the Y chromosome in that recent press conference. I'm not saying that it's true but one of the organisations here are wrong (or their testing is wrong), it could very well be IBA but it is also possible that its the IOC testing that's flawed. IBA also claim that neither fighter appealed the decisions when they were ruled out by the tests (actually Imane did originally but later withdrew the appeal)

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There's no need for the sarcasm. It was IBA who claimed that both the fighters in question had the Y chromosome in that recent press conference. I'm not saying that it's true but one of the organisations here are wrong (or their testing is wrong), it could very well be IBA but it is also possible that its the IOC testing that's flawed. IBA also claim that neither fighter appealed the decisions when they were ruled out by the tests (actually Imane did originally but later withdrew the appeal)

Out of respect for you, I'll exit this conversation. .

[Ammi]

Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, a professor of genetic endocrinology, said it is impossible to state everyone with a Y chromosome is a male and everyone with an X chromosome is a female.

Professor Højbjerg Gravholt, who is based at Aarhus University in Denmark and works with patients who have differences in sex development, added: “If I showed you pictures of my patients without any clothes on, you would say, well, these are females that I'm looking at.

“But, in fact, they actually have a Y chromosome. And so it’s really coming back to, what is sex? Is sex something you can see out of the chromosomes? No, it’s not. Is sex something that you can see depending on which hormone, estrogen, or testosterone you preferentially produce? No, it’s not. Sex is much more complicated.”



…for me she’s definitely a female and I don’t know whether I’m completely off base in thinking in terms of ‘advantaged athlete’ and elevated testosterone levels but……ughhhhh, this is a contact sport and it would be careless and lacking in safety to consider there may be an advantage that would make for an ‘unfair fight’…I don’t know if that could be said or not with this case because I have been considering that she’s had losses as well and some really quite convincing ones…/…and that’s part of what makes this all so layered in confusion….

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, a professor of genetic endocrinology, said it is impossible to state everyone with a Y chromosome is a male and everyone with an X chromosome is a female.

Professor Højbjerg Gravholt, who is based at Aarhus University in Denmark and works with patients who have differences in sex development, added: “If I showed you pictures of my patients without any clothes on, you would say, well, these are females that I'm looking at.

“But, in fact, they actually have a Y chromosome. And so it’s really coming back to, what is sex? Is sex something you can see out of the chromosomes? No, it’s not. Is sex something that you can see depending on which hormone, estrogen, or testosterone you preferentially produce? No, it’s not. Sex is much more complicated.”



…for me she’s definitely a female and I don’t know whether I’m completely off base in thinking in terms of ‘advantaged athlete’ and elevated testosterone levels but……ughhhhh, this is a contact sport and it would be careless and lacking in safety to consider there may be an advantage that would make for an ‘unfair fight’…I don’t know if that could be said or not with this case because I have been considering that she’s had losses as well and some really quite convincing ones…/…and that’s part of what makes this all so layered in confusion….

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

…yeah, I’m totally taking on board what you’re saying and I always feel that one size fits all rarely applies to things in general because we have to look at the specific differences and variations etc as well as the similarities that are being compared, you know…

…an elevated testerone level in females can be caused by varying things and polycystic ovary syndrome is quite a main one, I think…for example…I guess I’m also factoring in that testerone levels or ‘elevated’ testerone levels specifically in sport/competition have always had that strong link to performance enhancement drugs also, hence it all being monitored quite closely…but yeah, absolutely those levels do vary but the complication or confusion with Imane’s specific case as well has become a bit blurry by the thing that one sporting body did ban her from competing…yeah, possibly quite a dubious/corrupt sporting body but it still leaves that haze of thought…

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

With Rogan that's more likely to be an age thing, I think it's unlikely he's always had low T. I'm also a touch skeptical that his natural levels are as low as he says - I'd be entirely unsurprised if he was just doing a bit of juicing. It's increasingly common even in local gyms, and even moreso stateside/with male celebrities. All of 'em are on TRT and most of them a little bit of anabolic steroids for some seasoning.

Much harder to build muscle with low testosterone and basically impossible to get "big"/jacked.

Overall strength/muscle and bone density are more to do with the process of male puberty though, than someone's current T levels. Which is why the idea that someone who transitioned post-puberty and went on hormone replacement will always have a biological advantage over females. Though they'll also no longer be able to compete with men. my honest thoughts are it just has to be part of the decision making process when considering hormonal transition, if interested in pro sports. It just takes it off the table. Unless they have a "trans league". But I don't think many people would be interested in that (understandably).

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Just in relation to testosterone - I'm not an expert, but we all have very different levels. Take Joe Rogan - looks like a shaved chimp. Stocky, and built like a bulldog. He's a really good fighter (he may even have a chance against sheriff. Maybe.), looks like a "real man" (apart from the height - no offence to the short kings out there), yet he has to dose himself up on testosterone because his levels are so low.

There is absolutely no one size fits all rule, when it comes to our T levels.

Crazy to think that Joe Rogan started off as a stand up comedian !!

Just can’t imagine him cracking jokes




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[user104658]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Crazy to think that Joe Rogan started off as a stand up comedian !!

Just can’t imagine him cracking jokes

He doesn't need to crack jokes these days, he just gets flat-earthers etc. onto his podcast. They are the joke.