[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by bots

Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer does not believe transgender women are women, his official spokesman has said.

It comes after the UK Supreme Court ruled last week that a woman is defined by biological sex under equalities law.

In March 2022, when he was leader of the opposition, Sir Keir told the Times, external that "a woman is a female adult, and in addition to that transwomen are women, and that is not just my view - that is actually the law".

Asked if Sir Keir still believed that a transgender woman was a woman, the PM's official spokesman said: "No, the Supreme Court judgment has made clear that when looking at the Equality Act, a woman is a biological woman."

The spokesman added: "That is set out clearly by the court judgment."

Pressed over when the PM had changed his mind, his spokesman insisted the Labour government had been consistent that single-sex spaces "are protected in law".

The ruling also makes it clear that a person who was born male but identifies as a woman does not have the right to use spaces or services designated as for women-only.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crldey0z00ro


---------------------------------

Does anyone now believe a word the prime minister says?

The answer to your question is no.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No he flip flops more than Nicky

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

JK Rowling really is off down the pipeline at this point which is a shame. She really didn't need to go full Lozza Fox, it's not a good look and cheapens her platform if anything.

I think it's going to be hard for almost anyone to be like Laurence Fox.

That man is nearly as bad as Andrew Tate imo.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Great post Maru

Yep, well said @Maru

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I think it's going to be hard for almost anyone to be like Laurence Fox.

That man is nearly as bad as Andrew Tate imo.

I don't know if he's as bad as Tate because he isn't an actual pimp/sex trafficker, but the really amazing talent he has, is that he's managed to be just as gross and unappealing a human being as Tate without doing those things. He's just so... snivelling...

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

I don't know if he's as bad as Tate because he isn't an actual pimp/sex trafficker, but the really amazing talent he has, is that he's managed to be just as gross and unappealing a human being as Tate without doing those things. He's just so... snivelling...

You've definitely hit the nail on the head.

He is so effortless at being gross.

[arista]

[Vicky.]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...court-judgment

For anyone interested

[user104658]

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

[user104658]

I'd go as far as to say that the situation with public spaces is now actually worse.

Its not an issue with shelters/sports/anything where actual identity will be known, but open public spaces? Situation is currently broken. Oop.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

[Crimson Dynamo]

Community notes

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Community notes

Just sums up the contempt for female safeguarding, reducing it to be called 'a bathroom bill' I don't understand what is being said here, if they are not out to their colleagues and classmates, how would going into a bathroom they are supposed to use out them .. Not thought that one through

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

No, I'm saying how do you stop a predatory male from pretending to be a trans man (biological female) in order to enter women's bathrooms, when it's been legislated that bathroom use is biological sex. I honestly feel like it's part of the equation that's been overlooked with the focus being on predatory men pretending to be trans women to get to women... we do now have an issue where predatory men can pretend to be trans men (people who look like men can claim they were born female) to access women's toilets.

I'm not talking about the people who will voluntarily use the correct spaces I'm talking about the ones who will exploit the ability not to.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Just sums up the contempt for female safeguarding, reducing it to be called 'a bathroom bill' I don't understand what is being said here, if they are not out to their colleagues and classmates, how would going into a bathroom they are supposed to use out them .. Not thought that one through

They are saying if they're living life as a trans woman, and haven't told their colleagues they were born a man, they either now have to use the mans toilet which effectively outs them or break the law and use the women's.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

They are saying if they're living life as a trans woman, and haven't told their colleagues they were born a man, they either now have to use the mans toilet which effectively outs them or break the law and use the women's.

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

I was just explaining what they meant by what they said. It will affect trans men more than trans women, but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again as I've said all I really need to without repeating myself, I just wanted to clarify what that person meant that's all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I was just explaining what they meant by what they said. It will affect trans men more than trans women, but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again as I've said all I really need to without repeating myself, I just wanted to clarify what that person meant that's all.

"but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again "

that seems rather convenient in this section of the site

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

"but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again "

that seems rather convenient in this section of the site

To be fair to BBXX if they have nothing new to add then rereading old ground can be a waste of time, most of us could learn to do that more. Not me but others definitely.

Although...

If we were afraid to retread well worn paths this section would be completely dead.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

To be fair to BBXX if they have nothing new to add then rereading old ground can be a waste of time, most of us could learn to do that more. Not me but others definitely.

Although...

If we were afraid to retread well worn paths this section would be completely dead.

yeah yeah

you hate the site blah blah blah

yet here you are day after day

lol

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Redway

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

Well you can't change sex but you can reverse the cosmetic attempt

Awful business mentally

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

I still think the only "clean" solution is self-contained toilets (where the occupant is then irrelevant) there no other solution that isn't going to be, in some cases, a major issue. In the absense of that I do think it "somehow" has to be the case that transitioned (long term hormone replacement) trans men who look clearly male should be using male spaces. I know that creates a disparity between trans men and trans women but it's the only realistic safeguarding option.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Redway

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

It's a thing and they get dropped by doctors as soon as they start questioning. The whole thing is a medical racket.