[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Tom

apart from the fact she basically said "****** the North" and put us into a pointless war over an island noone cares about and one that we didn't need to. Fantastic woman she was.

The Falklands...ah right. So we should have just let the people who live there be invaded by Argentina? They wanted to stay British, so we had every right to fight off the invasion.

As for '**** the north' - is this with regard to her opposition of trade unions? Because before her intervention they were able to hold a complete standstill over the economy and energy resources, above Parliamentary power. It's thanks to her that we don't get frozen every time a bunch of employees throw a hissy fit.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shaun

The Falklands...ah right. So we should have just let the people who live there be invaded by Argentina? They wanted to stay British, so we had every right to fight off the invasion.

As for '**** the north' - is this with regard to her opposition of trade unions? Because before her intervention they were able to hold a complete standstill over the economy and energy resources, above Parliamentary power. It's thanks to her that we don't get frozen every time a bunch of employees throw a hissy fit.

Well basically it was clear that she didn't like the north and shut down the mines etc- the north hasn't actually recovered from that and I doubt it ever will.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Tom

Well basically it was clear that she didn't like the north and shut down the mines etc- the north hasn't actually recovered from that and I doubt it ever will.

That's a bit of a vague assertion. Poverty in the North still happens but not to the degree it was at in the 70s/early 80s.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shaun

That's a bit of a vague assertion. Poverty in the North still happens but not to the degree it was at in the 70s/early 80s.

But the rich/poor divide is growing even more than it was back then. The working class has pretty much gone, you're now pretty much either in sub working class or at the very least you're 'lower' middle class. I know its happening everywhere but closing the mines was a catalyst for the benefits culture. There are a lot of older men who didn't find work after the mines closed down because they were too old to change career and noone wanted to employ them. In many families its something that has been passed down, the thought that they can't do anything else.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Tom

But the rich/poor divide is growing even more than it was back then. The working class has pretty much gone, you're now pretty much either in sub working class or at the very least you're 'lower' middle class. I know its happening everywhere but closing the mines was a catalyst for the benefits culture. There are a lot of older men who didn't find work after the mines closed down because they were too old to change career and noone wanted to employ them. In many families its something that has been passed down, the thought that they can't do anything else.

You're right about the rich/poor divide growing even more, and the irony is that this has happened faster and more widespread under New Labour than the previous Tory governments. New Labour's manifesto when they first came to power was to eliminate poverty, instead of which it has increased exponentially. The tragedy is that there are young people in their twenties who have NEVER had a job, what hope is there for them?

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Tom

Well basically it was clear that she didn't like the north and shut down the mines etc- the north hasn't actually recovered from that and I doubt it ever will.

She didnt close down the mines, lack of orders, bad management, during the miners strike some mines were allowed to fall into disrepair. Lots of mines would have closed anyway as they were at the time economically unviable.

If you want to know what really screwed up the coal industry look at Uncle Arthur and the leadership of the NUM, flogging a dead horse. Not allowing the industry to be slimmed down into something that could have survived. Miners out on strike living on handouts, yet Arthur and co had practically a millionaires lifestyle. In fact he is still living a good life on his NUM pension. True representation.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Shasown

She didnt close down the mines, lack of orders, bad management, during the miners strike some mines were allowed to fall into disrepair. Lots of mines would have closed anyway as they were at the time economically unviable.

And the reason for this was the outsourcing of our coal-mining industry to foreign countries brought about by Thatcher's economic reforms. As a result we have become dependent on imported fossil fuels and fell into a trade deficit from which we might never recover.

If you want to know what really screwed up the coal industry look at Uncle Arthur and the leadership of the NUM, flogging a dead horse. Not allowing the industry to be slimmed down into something that could have survived. Miners out on strike living on handouts, yet Arthur and co had practically a millionaires lifestyle. In fact he is still living a good life on his NUM pension. True representation.

Scargill is just about the most extreme, militant example of a British trade unionist you could have mentioned. Nobody is saying unions should be given the clout they enjoyed back in the 1970's, but it's not too much to ask that an employer isn't given carte blanche over making large sections of his workforce redundant whenever he pleases. If this were an indigenous industry such as coalmining, the government would have offered its support before Thatcher made our industries subordinate to the whims of the global market without considering the inevitable trade deficit and of course the social consequences.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

And the reason for this was the outsourcing of our coal-mining industry to foreign countries brought about by Thatcher's economic reforms. As a result we have become dependent on imported fossil fuels and fell into a trade deficit from which we might never recover.

Lack of reinvestment made over the previous three or four decades, smaller wildcat strikes, secondary picketing, the NUM leadership pulling the miners out in support of other industries in dispute, all meant the NCB couldnt meet orders, so where were powers staions etc meant to buy coal to burn for electricity?

I dont know if you were around in the seventies, but the unions while helping bring about fantastic changes in health and safety, standards of living etc. also did a lot of damage to Britain's market economy.

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Scargill is just about the most extreme, militant example of a British trade unionist you could have mentioned. Nobody is saying unions should be given the clout they enjoyed back in the 1970's, but it's not too much to ask that an employer isn't given carte blanche over making large sections of his workforce redundant whenever he pleases.

Thats the nature of the beast though isnt it? If its unviable do you continue to pump public money into supporting something that may be better off dying a death. Something has to give and at the time there were also problems with the Steel Industry, Motor Industry, Shipbuilding, Air Transport, Aircraft Building, the list goes on and on.

Protectionist policies that some political and union leaders advocated at the time would have simply drained the national economy, worse than Tony and Gordy have done over the last few years.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Lack of reinvestment made over the previous three or four decades, smaller wildcat strikes, secondary picketing, the NUM leadership pulling the miners out in support of other industries in dispute, all meant the NCB couldnt meet orders, so where were powers staions etc meant to buy coal to burn for electricity?

I dont know if you were around in the seventies, but the unions while helping bring about fantastic changes in health and safety, standards of living etc. also did a lot of damage to Britain's market economy.

Some valid points here. I am not old enough to remember the 1970's, but I live in an area that has suffered the consequences of the political upheaval of the 1980's. My town is a shadow of its former self. Most of its working class earned a living as labourers and mine workers. Their livelihood was taken away when their limited skills no longer served any purpose and the mines were forced to close down. Many are still unemployed and my own generation has had a far more difficult time climbing the social ladder than those their parents' age.

You may not believe it, but I don't see the Tory supporters or members as the villains of the late 70's, early 80's. People had their reasons for hating the unions and Thatcher was the only direct challenge to them. I just don't agree with the alternative she offered.

Thats the nature of the beast though isnt it? If its unviable do you continue to pump public money into supporting something that may be better off dying a death. Something has to give and at the time there were also problems with the Steel Industry, Motor Industry, Shipbuilding, Air Transport, Aircraft Building, the list goes on and on.

Protectionist policies that some political and union leaders advocated at the time would have simply drained the national economy, worse than Tony and Gordy have done over the last few years.

At the very least, we would have been self-sufficient and society wouldn't have been put in jeopardy by mass unemployment. Britain's tightly regulated, highly taxed economy should have been somewhat streamlined, not smashed altogether. Would we have become the fourth largest economy in the world (up until recently) if this had happened? Maybe not. Would life in Britain have been better than it has been for the past twenty years? I think so.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

At the very least, we would have been self-sufficient and society wouldn't have been put in jeopardy by mass unemployment. Britain's tightly regulated, highly taxed economy should have been somewhat streamlined, not smashed altogether. Would we have become the fourth largest economy in the world (up until recently) if this had happened? Maybe not. Would life in Britain have been better than it has been for the past twenty years? I think so.

No chance we would ever have been self sufficient, its alright saying if we had kept our pits open with public funds our iron and steel industry would have bought the coal, no they wouldnt, they would still have bought cheaper, more reliable deliveries from germany, even though the coal itself was of a lower quality, it was guarenteed to be there when you wanted it.

Would the British Public have paid for far more expensive electricity, cars etc than cheaper foreign imports. Dont think so. So what could we do, oh we could put an import tax on all foreign goods coming into the UK, in which case everyone else taxes our exports.

While Thatcher's policies werent ideal they were better than Labour's at the time, improving the balance of payments, reducing unemployment eventually and bringing down inflation, which is why Tony Blair used her basic economic model initially when he came to power.

The reason why the recession of the 1980's was so lengthy was because at the start of the decade the pound became a petro currency because of North Sea Oil and its value rose. This meant our exports overseas became more expensive, this in turn reduced demand for british goods, even in the uk market as foreign imports were cheaper, consequently our manufacturing industries suffered.

Long Term unemployment figures started falling mid-80's partly due to massaged figures but also due to a real fall in numbers unemployed. When Labour came to power they were riding on the back of Tory policies for the first 2-3 years. Since then figures have been further massaged. However since the mid 80's the numbers of people in employment has actually risen.

[ILoveTRW]

Originally Posted by Tom

Well basically it was clear that she didn't like the north and shut down the mines etc- the north hasn't actually recovered from that and I doubt it ever will.

she did a great deal for the north, she actually got agriculture back on its feet and closing down the mines this the best thing that she could of done.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shasown

She didnt close down the mines, lack of orders, bad management, during the miners strike some mines were allowed to fall into disrepair. Lots of mines would have closed anyway as they were at the time economically unviable.

If you want to know what really screwed up the coal industry look at Uncle Arthur and the leadership of the NUM, flogging a dead horse. Not allowing the industry to be slimmed down into something that could have survived. Miners out on strike living on handouts, yet Arthur and co had practically a millionaires lifestyle. In fact he is still living a good life on his NUM pension. True representation.

I get some were unviable, its the same in all businesses. But there was no need for it to be completely closed. She should have found a solution.

Originally Posted by ILoveDC

she did a great deal for the north, she actually got agriculture back on its feet and closing down the mines this the best thing that she could of done.

Agriculture affects a very small part of the north because most of it is industrial.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Tom

I get some were unviable, its the same in all businesses. But there was no need for it to be completely closed. She should have found a solution.

She had a solution that would have worked, no strike, back to work, allow uneconomic collieries to be closed down. Rebuild the reputation of the NCB(National Coal Board) for fulfilling orders reliably. And allow it to compete in the market of the time.

The NCB could have marketed themselves to prospective buyers the quality of their product over cheaper German Imports.

And that is the real reason the mining industry collapsed in this country: Cheaper German Imports. Which funnily enough managed to provide the coal requested on time unlike our coal industry that had one little strike after another from 1974 courtesy of our Arthur and co. (and to think I even voted that twat in as president ah well hindsight is 20/20)

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shaun

The Falklands...ah right. So we should have just let the people who live there be invaded by Argentina? They wanted to stay British, so we had every right to fight off the invasion.

As for '**** the north' - is this with regard to her opposition of trade unions? Because before her intervention they were able to hold a complete standstill over the economy and energy resources, above Parliamentary power. It's thanks to her that we don't get frozen every time a bunch of employees throw a hissy fit.

hissy fit! lol...she shat on the working classes from a great height and left them high and dry! She is partly the reason the banks and the greedy have left us in the mess we're in now!...dont get me started on poll tax!... she created a society where the individual and money matters more than community and people...and it will turn round and bite us in the ass everytime