[InOne]

Why are they using the term 'veil' as if it's some modest attire. They're covered head to toe in black fgs! Obviously is presents a security thread. I really don't know what they expected in a college where you are needed to prove your identity. It's not about culture or anything like that, it's common sense.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Oh please, not the whole "they should respect our culture" argument again. We are not purely a Christian country, we are a secular one, perhaps the most secular country in the world. Not only that but we are a tolerant country. Why do people always compare us to countries in the Middle East where they dictate their clothing style to their citizens there. Thank God we do not do that, I would hate it if we such a strict and intolerant society so as to not have the simplest freedom to wear whatever clothes we wanted. Yes it was their culture there, maybe, but it isn't ours here, and we should be thankful for that.

What the hell is British culture anyway, people always parrot on about it and I'm yet to have a heard a decent definition, or a definition that would prevent someone wearing what they want. Since when did our culture dictate what clothes someone can and cannot wear!?

I cant belive some women are actually offended by the burkha. You may consider it a symbol of female subjugation, but most who wear it dont, not in this country. It is their right to choose to wear it, is their own personal choice, if they want to wear the Burkha then they can, and do, wear it.

National security may be a valid argument to ban the burkha. So would the fact that it does restricts integration and communication in a lot of ways, which is needed if you want a succesful multicultural society. But the arguments about preserving our culture, the UK being a Christian country, and it being a symbol of female oppression are not, not in my view anyway.

Aye its the usual bigots, coming out with crap...like christain oppression LOL....and what about the muslims that were born here? noooo they dont count, theyre not one of us...the sad thing is kids are going round my sons school calling people muslim as an insult...people are listening to this crap and going ug ug me hate muslim

[WOMBAI]

QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3819183]Aye its the usual bigots, coming out with crap...like christain oppression LOL....and what about the muslims that were born here? noooo they dont count, theyre not one of us...the sad thing is kids are going round my sons school calling people muslim as an insult...people are listening to this crap and going ug ug me hate muslim[/QUOTE]

Security is the primary concern here - not Muslim womens' right to choose - the burka is not even a religious requirement! We all have to abide by such security rules - Muslims being no exception! They have no right to preferrential treatment - much as they may desire it! ug, ug!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Security is the primary concern here - not Muslim womens' right to choose - the burka is not even a religious requiment! We all have to abide by such security rules - Muslims being no exception! They have no right to preferrential treatment - much as they may desire it! ug, ug!

Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.

Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.

Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.

I think banning the burka in a few school isn't really going to increase a terrorism threat. Come on. They can feel offended all they want, but most Muslims probably wouldn't be offended by it. The Media are Muslims worst enemy when it comes to think they this. Reporting on one over excited girl that feels 'offended', I'm sure most would just tell her to get over herself.

[Niall]

I'm guessing this is for the full face veil/Burkha?

If so then I can totally understand why they would ban it. What if a student were to steal another student's property? How would they check the student's identity? I'm not saying I agree but I just understand why they are doing this.

Personally I don't understand why the Burkha is worn anyway. I don't see the need to cover a woman's entire face. It's unnecessary. And I know the way Muslim women dress is to keep their modesty but covering the entire face is a little bit silly in my point of view. The veil where you can see the face is fine - why can't Muslim women wear it?

[arista]

"Personally I don't understand why the Burkha is worn anyway"


Some due to Strict Extreme Muslim Parents.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by arista

"Personally I don't understand why the Burkha is worn anyway"


Some due to Strict Extreme Muslim Parents.

Oh ok, that would make sense, its just that most of the Muslims who I've seen speak about it, come across as that they chose to wear the Burkha. I've always thought it would be very uncomfortable to wear too.

[Angus]

I don't give a toss whether muslims are offended by the banning of the burkha in a case such as this. It is common sense that it is necessary to see the identity of people going in and out of public buildings such as colleges, banks, schools, airports, etc etc. As it is, being a Londoner, I feel very uneasy when I have to travel on public transport with women wearing the full burkha. If Muslims don't GET that, well tough. I'm fed up with having to consider THEIR feelings, how about a bit of recipricocity and commonsense here for a change?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by InOne

I think banning the burka in a few school isn't really going to increase a terrorism threat. Come on. They can feel offended all they want, but most Muslims probably wouldn't be offended by it. The Media are Muslims worst enemy when it comes to think they this. Reporting on one over excited girl that feels 'offended', I'm sure most would just tell her to get over herself.

Ah I was talking on a more general level. The impression I got from Angus and Wombai was that they wanted it banned altogether with their "it isn't our culture" and "it's a symbol of female oppression" bull. In the case of a school then they have the right to ban it if they please, and that would be fair enough, but I dont think it should women should be completely banned from wearing it in public.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by angus58

I don't give a toss whether muslims are offended by the banning of the burkha in a case such as this. It is common sense that it is necessary to see the identity of people going in and out of public buildings such as colleges, banks, schools, airports, etc etc. As it is, being a Londoner, I feel very uneasy when I have to travel on public transport with women wearing the full burkha. If Muslims don't GET that, well tough. I'm fed up with having to consider THEIR feelings, how about a bit of recipricocity and commonsense here for a change?

Poor you, they should stop wearing a piece of clothing of huge importance to them just on the off chance that some uptight londoner feels a bit uncomfortable. Get over yourself

[InOne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Ah I was talking on a more general level. The impression I got from Angus and Wombai was that they wanted it banned altogether with their "it isn't our culture" and "it's a symbol of female oppression" bull. In the case of a school then they have the right to ban it if they please, and that would be fair enough, but I dont think it should women should be completely banned from wearing it in public.

To be fair it is a symbol of opression lol But I don't think it impacts on our culture. It's still going strong I feel, just need to go to the right places.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Me!

Oh ok, that would make sense, its just that most of the Muslims who I've seen speak about it, come across as that they chose to wear the Burkha. I've always thought it would be very uncomfortable to wear too.

For the vast majority of those who wear it in this country it is their choice.
The number of Muslims who wear the burqa numbers only a couple of thousand, they're a tiny minority within a minority, people should stop getting so worked up about it

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by InOne

To be fair it is a symbol of opression lol But I don't think it impacts on our culture. It's still going strong I feel, just need to go to the right places.

Only when the husband forces the woman to wear it though, which happens very rarely in the UK. If they want to wear it, and they make the choice themselves then I dont see the problem tbh

[InOne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Only when the husband forces the woman to wear it though, which happens very rarely in the UK. If they want to wear it, and they make the choice themselves then I dont see the problem tbh

Yes but it stems back from where they or their parents come from. It was the taliban who forced Women to wear the Burka without choice. And why should a rare occasion be missed? And I doubt it's that rare the amount that wear them. Some came here to escape the way of life back home and now they're seeing it here. Now it has become some sort of fashion trend to the ignorant muslim youth.

[WOMBAI]

[QUOTE=MTVN;3819362]Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.

Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.[/QUOTE]



No they are not - not if they contrevene security regulations! And I refuse to be held hostage to Muslim sensibilities! The burka poses a risk to security - a crucifix does not - to compare the two is ludicrous!

Any reasonable Muslim who is not trying to gain preferential treatment will understand and respect the security issue - if they don't - that is their problem not ours - and raises doubts as to their motives!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by InOne

Yes but it stems back from where they or their parents come from. It was the taliban who forced Women to wear the Burka without choice. And why should a rare occasion be missed? And I doubt it's that rare the amount that wear them. Some came here to escape the way of life back home and now they're seeing it here. Now it has become some sort of fashion trend to the ignorant muslim youth.

I'm not saying that the rare cases should be ignored, men shouldnt be allowed to force someone to wear a burqa, but if we are dictating their clothing to them and telling them what they can and cannot wear then surely we are just like them? We may not completely understand their reasons for wearing them, but its very important for some people and I just dont think we have the right to tell them not to wear it. Only about 2000 people wear them (apparently) so they arent exactly a prominent figure in our society and I dont think it's fair to ban them just in case a woman isnt wearing it out of her own free will

I would agree that for some it has become something of a fashion statement though.

[MTVN]

[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3819571]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.

Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.[/QUOTE]



No they are not - not if they contrevene security regulations! And I refuse to be held hostage to Muslim sensibilities! The burka poses a risk to security - a crucifix does not - to compare the two is ludicrous!

Any reasonable Muslim who is not trying to gain preferential treatment will understand and respect the security issue - if they don't - that is their problem not ours!

It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.

As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Ah I was talking on a more general level. The impression I got from Angus and Wombai was that they wanted it banned altogether with their "it isn't our culture" and "it's a symbol of female oppression" bull. In the case of a school then they have the right to ban it if they please, and that would be fair enough, but I dont think it should women should be completely banned from wearing it in public.

I don't know what your culture is - but mine is traditionally British of which I am proud - and why shouldn't I be - there is nothing wrong with traditional British culture and Christianity - it built this country!

British culture and female oppression are not bull - only maybe to men from a non-traditional British culture - which suggests exactly the same kind of single-minded bias you imply about the views of others!

[InOne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm not saying that the rare cases should be ignored, men shouldnt be allowed to force someone to wear a burqa, but if we are dictating their clothing to them and telling them what they can and cannot wear then surely we are just like them? We may not completely understand their reasons for wearing them, but its very important for some people and I just dont think we have the right to tell them not to wear it. Only about 2000 people wear them (apparently) so they arent exactly a prominent figure in our society and I dont think it's fair to ban them just in case a woman isnt wearing it out of her own free will

I would agree that for some it has become something of a fashion statement though.

But if it is a matter of security, we can tell them if they can wear it or not. It goes beyond any sort of Culture thing, we can't stop them wearing it for the sake of 'culture', but I'd rather a few women wore the more modest hijab, than to burka to prevent another 7/7.

[NettoSuperstar!]

[QUOTE=MTVN;3819591]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.

As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.

Exactly..."possible terror threat"....This issue is treated like its a matter of significant national importance...exactly how many breaches of security have occured due to burkha wearing jihadi's?? And how many times has it been an issue-muslims refusing to identify themselves where neccesary??...its all an excuse for a bit of muslim bashing and usually accompanies a load of vitriol and misinformation... and it all being a threat to "our" culture

[WOMBAI]

[QUOTE=MTVN;3819591]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.

As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.

It is - in relation to security - and security is what the thread is about! Even my 13 year old can see that a full-facial burka poses a security threat in places such as schools, universities, airports, banks etc and should not be allowed! Any item of clothing that covers the face is not acceptable!

[NettoSuperstar!]

[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3819608]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It is - in relation to security - and security is what the thread is about! Even my 13 year old can see that a full-facial burka poses a security threat in places such as schools, universities, airports, banks etc and should not be allowed! Any item of clothing that covers the face is not acceptable!

yeh add your minor valid point in with the rest of it, we know the tactic...answer my questions?....wombat desperately searches the net looking for evidence lol

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I don't know what your culture is - but mine is traditionally British of which I am proud - and why shouldn't I be - there is nothing wrong with traditional British culture and Christianity - it built this country!

British culture and female oppression are not bull - only maybe to men from a non-traditional British culture - which suggests exactly the same kind of single-minded bias you imply about the views of others!

What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?

There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV

I couldnt really tell you what my culture is, and I dont care, I'm not going to be defined by some percieved and misguided concept of "British culture" which doesnt even really exist

Originally Posted by InOne

But if it is a matter of security, we can tell them if they can wear it or not. It goes beyond any sort of Culture thing, we can't stop them wearing it for the sake of 'culture', but I'd rather a few women wore the more modest hijab, than to burka to prevent another 7/7.

But is the threat really that big? Can we really justify banning what is a religious garment of huge importance to some based on an irrational paranoia of terrorism. Like Netto said, how many cases of attempted terrorism have there actually been where the suspect has used the burqa? A ban on it wouldnt have prevented 7/7, and it doesnt necessarily have to compromise our security. Where appropiate measures could be introduced, at airports, schools etc. but a complete ban wouldn't be fair imo

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Exactly..."possible terror threat"....This issue is treated like its a matter of significant national importance...exactly how many breaches of security have occured due to burkha wearing jihadi's?? And how many times has it been an issue-muslims refusing to identify themselves where neccesary??...its all an excuse for a bit of muslim bashing and usually accompanies a load of vitriol and misinformation... and it all being a threat to "our" culture

Yep, agree completely.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?

There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV

I couldnt really tell you what my culture is, and I dont care, I'm not going to be defined by some percieved and misguided concept of "British culture" which doesnt even really exist



But is the threat really that big? Can we really justify banning what is a religious garment of huge importance to some based on an irrational paranoia of terrorism. Like Netto said, how many cases of attempted terrorism have there actually been where the suspect has used the burqa? A ban on it wouldnt have prevented 7/7, and it doesnt necessarily have to compromise our security. Where appropiate measures could be introduced, at airports, schools etc. but a complete ban wouldn't be fair imo



Yep, agree completely.

It's not exactly of 'huge importance'. It's to do with their culture not religion. In the Quran is says to dress modest, doesn't go into detail.