[Macie Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by SoBig

Since Hatch there have been players that are just simply better. If you replace Hatch with Cirrie, Pavatti, Boston Rob or any of the all-time Survivor greats, you get a similar result in Boneo if not better. Now on the other hand, if you replace Boston Rob, Cirrie etc. with Hatch on their seasons, do you honestly believe that Hatch would have dominated like they did and would have gotten as far?

Ozzy should have won, because he would have gotten to the final 3 regardless if he had Yul or the idol on his side. Yul wouldn’t have made it as far without Ozzy or the super powered idol. There is just no way, Candice played a better game than Ozzy, that’s just crazy talk. Especially, after she flipped to the other side.

Rachel had arguably the 2nd biggest target on her back. Porsche wasn’t a good strategic player or manipulator. Neither was Rachel, but she was the better of the two. Porsche half the time didn’t know what was going on. Danielle and Kalia were the brains behind their alliance. All Porsche did was gossip when they were together. I don’t consider Rachel to be a great player or anything like that. To me what really gives her the edge was the fact that she won more competitions than Porsche. Overall I think Shelly probably was the best player this season, even though I couldn’t stand her. If it wasn’t for the final duo twist, she probably would have made it to the final 2. She played a similar game to Dr. Will.

It doesn't matter what Sandra was trying to do undercover, because nothing she did worked out the way she wanted it to. Nothing. The only reason she made it to the final 3 was because Russell wanted to be up against two winners, because he thought for sure the jury was not going to vote for people that had already won Survivor. Sandra was pretty irrelevant.

What you are forgetting is if Russell had played any other way in Samoa, he would have been evicted before or after the merge. Remember his tribe was down 8- 4 at the merge. What he did to get the final 3 was very impressive. I just don’t understand how you ignore the strategic part of the game altogether. You want to reward ass kissing and how popular someone is with the tribe over strategic play. I just don’t respect that. Vote for who played the best game. Not for who was the most likeable or most popular.

You know something is wrong, when Rupert, Jerri or Colby would have won HvV if they were up against Pavatti and Russell in the final 3. No matter what, the jury was dead set on not letting those two win, because of personal feelings.

Once again that's all a matter of opinion. We can't prove/disprove anything since you're speaking in hypothetical terms.

Ozzy didn't have any game besides his physicality. Throwing a Challenge to get Billy out was stupid, he was on the outside of Aitu before the mutiny, the mutiny had a lot of manipulation with bottle twist to even things up, and even when in the final six, five, four, etc., Ozzy was still talked about being voted off. The only thing he had going for him was physicality. No real strategic game, not much of a social game, nothing special at all. Meanwhile, Candice had good ties with everyone on Raro, was in control in Aitu, was in control on Raro. Her downfall only started with the production manipulation that made the numbers 5v4 and not listening to Jonathan about the HII. She was always thinking strategically and made moves to advance herself further, while Ozzy's only move was to be physical.

Rachel hardly had a target on her back. Brendon and Jeff were always targeted over her and she was able to hide behind them for a majority of the game. Meanwhile, Porsche had to fight to be saved the first week, and even then the general consensus was that she would be evicted when the Golden Key twist ended. It's phenomenal that Porsche made it to the end considering it was 6 vs. 3 at final nine. The only people who would've nominated Rachel and her allies were Porsche, Kalia, and Daniele. Compare that to six people who would've nominated D/K/P and you can't argue that they didn't overcome a lot. Being a competitor didn't matter nearly as much for Rachel as it did for Porsche since Porsche had a bigger target on her back. And going back to you claiming Shelly voted based on strategy, besides trying to get back into Jordan/Jeff's graces, Porsche was the person Shelly hated the most, since the first day in the House. Porsche was onto Shelly's game and Shelly had it out for her the whole time. Once again, a Juror voting for someone they like more, especially after Shelly trashed Porsche for opening Pandora's Box and thinking Porsche was the reason she was evicted.

Sandra played up to Russell's ego, saying she just wanted the $100,000 at the end because she wouldn't receive any votes. Russell foolishly bought into that and took her along. It wasn't what she tried to do undercover, it's what she did undercover. You only look at stuff on the surface that Russell and Parvati do and fail to see the little, but significant things, that matter in the end.

Russell brought a Jury threat with him to the merge in Samoa, and did so willingly and knowingly! He said he'd bring Natalie over Liz because Natalie would get in with Galu better! How can you say someone played the best game when they brought someone who can get along with the eventual Jurors with them?! Human nature isn't a flaw in the game, that's something you need to understand. You need to know how people work to know how Survivor works. If you abuse a Jury, obviously they're not going to reward you with a million dollars for it, it's not rocket science.

And whose fault is that? Russell doesn't understand how the Jury works, so he wouldn't win against anyone. That's besides the point. Parvati would've only won if Danielle was in the final three with her and Russell, but that shows the flaws in Parvati's game. She played well, but she was cliquey and that turned some people off socially. Plus the bonds that Sandra had with the Heroes and Courtney was strong enough to win their votes. Everyone votes personally to a degree, you can't be completely objective in your vote, that's human nature. That's something you need to accept because that's how we all operate.

[SoBig]

Originally Posted by troynuncdicit

Once again that's all a matter of opinion. We can't prove/disprove anything since you're speaking in hypothetical terms.

Ozzy didn't have any game besides his physicality. Throwing a Challenge to get Billy out was stupid, he was on the outside of Aitu before the mutiny, the mutiny had a lot of manipulation with bottle twist to even things up, and even when in the final six, five, four, etc., Ozzy was still talked about being voted off. The only thing he had going for him was physicality. No real strategic game, not much of a social game, nothing special at all. Meanwhile, Candice had good ties with everyone on Raro, was in control in Aitu, was in control on Raro. Her downfall only started with the production manipulation that made the numbers 5v4 and not listening to Jonathan about the HII. She was always thinking strategically and made moves to advance herself further, while Ozzy's only move was to be physical.

Rachel hardly had a target on her back. Brendon and Jeff were always targeted over her and she was able to hide behind them for a majority of the game. Meanwhile, Porsche had to fight to be saved the first week, and even then the general consensus was that she would be evicted when the Golden Key twist ended. It's phenomenal that Porsche made it to the end considering it was 6 vs. 3 at final nine. The only people who would've nominated Rachel and her allies were Porsche, Kalia, and Daniele. Compare that to six people who would've nominated D/K/P and you can't argue that they didn't overcome a lot. Being a competitor didn't matter nearly as much for Rachel as it did for Porsche since Porsche had a bigger target on her back. And going back to you claiming Shelly voted based on strategy, besides trying to get back into Jordan/Jeff's graces, Porsche was the person Shelly hated the most, since the first day in the House. Porsche was onto Shelly's game and Shelly had it out for her the whole time. Once again, a Juror voting for someone they like more, especially after Shelly trashed Porsche for opening Pandora's Box and thinking Porsche was the reason she was evicted.

Sandra played up to Russell's ego, saying she just wanted the $100,000 at the end because she wouldn't receive any votes. Russell foolishly bought into that and took her along. It wasn't what she tried to do undercover, it's what she did undercover. You only look at stuff on the surface that Russell and Parvati do and fail to see the little, but significant things, that matter in the end.

Russell brought a Jury threat with him to the merge in Samoa, and did so willingly and knowingly! He said he'd bring Natalie over Liz because Natalie would get in with Galu better! How can you say someone played the best game when they brought someone who can get along with the eventual Jurors with them?! Human nature isn't a flaw in the game, that's something you need to understand. You need to know how people work to know how Survivor works. If you abuse a Jury, obviously they're not going to reward you with a million dollars for it, it's not rocket science.

And whose fault is that? Russell doesn't understand how the Jury works, so he wouldn't win against anyone. That's besides the point. Parvati would've only won if Danielle was in the final three with her and Russell, but that shows the flaws in Parvati's game. She played well, but she was cliquey and that turned some people off socially. Plus the bonds that Sandra had with the Heroes and Courtney was strong enough to win their votes. Everyone votes personally to a degree, you can't be completely objective in your vote, that's human nature. That's something you need to accept because that's how we all operate.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm just going to correct you on a few things.

They wanting to vote out Ozzy had nothing to do with his social game or lack thereof. He was being targeted because he was winning every single challenge and they were all afraid that no one could beat him in the Final 3. Challenge denominators are always targeted.

The reason Russell picked Natalie, was because Liz was starting to figure out Russell's game and was telling him that she didn't think that she could trust him. He was losing his control over her. He couldn't risk her flipping at the merge and turning against him. He even said so.

Porsche literally did nothing in the first week other than accepting Dick's offer. Then she told Keith about her new alliance with the Vets. That caused the newbies to not trust her at all. It’s Keith that screwed himself over in week 1. When he had that meeting with the newbies and called out Kalia. After he did that Kalia decided she was going to flip her vote. Had nothing to do with anything Porsche did.

Rachel was up for eviction FIVE times. If that’s not having a target on your back, then I don't know what is. Even in week 2, Jeff and Jordan were seriously considering nominating both Brendon and Rachel, because they couldn't stand being around her anymore. Yes, it’s true that Danielle and friends always targeted Brandon over Rachel, but they always targeted her over Jeff. If you remember, Kalia nominated Jeff and Rachel, with Rachel being the intended target. They were all afraid of the repercussions of going after Jeff.

Why would the Vets target Porsche after the Golden Key twist ended? She was a part of their alliance! Rachel liked her as a friend. Its only after Porsche accidentally helped Kalia win her first HOH, she was forced to team up with Kalia and Danielle, because the vets no longer trusted her. Porsche making it far in the game should have been expected. Danielle, Kalia, Jeff, Jordan, Brendon and Rachel all had bigger targets than her.

Shelly hated Rachel on a personal level. Towards the end of the show Shelly hated her more than anyone else in the house.