[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Why what crime has he committed?

He revealed methods used by an organisation entrusted with protecting his former country the US. So he gave info that would help prevent terrorists from being caught.

Just because it's some secret spy organisation doesn't make it an evil entity. The powers they have to look into peoples lives is a tool they need to get the job done.

And where is he hiding out, a country that promotes freedom and democracy? No he's in Russia, one of the enemies of both those ideals.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

He revealed methods used by an organisation entrusted with protecting his former country the US. So he gave info that would help prevent terrorists from being caught.

Just because it's some secret spy organisation doesn't make it an evil entity. The powers they have to look into peoples lives is a tool they need to get the job done.

And where is he hiding out, a country that promotes freedom and democracy? No he's in Russia, one of the enemies of both those ideals.

Yes he seems to have found a country that seems willing to protect his human rights a hell of a lot more than the U.S. will its no suprise.
Imagine being hounded to death for breaking the freedom of information act that is the equivalent of what is happening to this man and to many others in his situation.
They are an oppressive regime to be feared.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "
Thomas Jefferson

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Yes

Yes what?

You agree with me, that Snowden is a criminal. Or are you trying to be patronising?

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Yes he seems to have found a country that seems willing to protect his human rights a hell of a lot more than the U.S. will its no suprise.

Right, so he's staying with a country that is the traditional enemy of his former country. Maybe that should give him a clue as to who his actions have actually helped.

He's made it more difficult for terrorist plots to be uncovered, how is that helping the everyday person?

I'm sure everyone in the tinfoil hats thinks of him as some type of hero.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Right, so he's staying with a country that is the traditional enemy of his former country. Maybe that should give him a clue as to who his actions have actually helped.

He's made it more difficult for terrorist plots to be uncovered, how is that helping the everyday person?

I'm sure everyone in the tinfoil hats thinks of him as some type of hero.

Ok your mentions of tinfoils hats and accusations of being patronising in your last two posts are enough.
I have my opinions and you have yours that wont change.(i havent resorted to trying to belittle yours)
Peace miss gypsy.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Ok your mentions of tinfoils hats and accusations of being patronising in your last two posts are enough.
I have my opinions and you have yours that wont change.(i havent resorted to trying to belittle yours)
Peace miss gypsy.

What about this?

Originally Posted by bobnot

The sheeple will say otherwise of course.

It seemed to me that you were calling people sheep who didn't agree with your point of view.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Yes he seems to have found a country that seems willing to protect his human rights a hell of a lot more than the U.S. will its no suprise.
Imagine being hounded to death for breaking the freedom of information act that is the equivalent of what is happening to this man and to many others in his situation.

But it wasn't his place to pull back the curtain and let it be know to regular people how they're being spied on. People panic and act stupid, I'd much rather trust an organisation like the CIA.

What's the alternative? To have the CIA apply for a warrant from a judge any time they want to spy on someone in the world, how does that help protect people?

And what about the rights of the people he's endangered? Or do his human rights come before them?

Maybe if he didn't like his country, he should have renounced his citizenship and defected to russia. From what I can see, he hasn't benefited the world, in fact he's made it a more unsafe place with his revelations.

[arista]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

He revealed methods used by an organisation entrusted with protecting his former country the US. So he gave info that would help prevent terrorists from being caught.

Just because it's some secret spy organisation doesn't make it an evil entity. The powers they have to look into peoples lives is a tool they need to get the job done.

And where is he hiding out, a country that promotes freedom and democracy? No he's in Russia, one of the enemies of both those ideals.

Sure No worse than the President Murdering Millions
with Drones that kill children near the targets

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by arista

Sure No worse than the President Murdering Millions
with Drones that kill children near the targets

But I think that's a different issue, so just because that happens, it doesn't make it ok for their spying methods to be revealed.

If the american people have issue with the drone strikes, they should protest against them and not vote for Obamas party next time.

Whistle blowers have always played an important role in attempting to curb the overreaching powers of government. Benjamin Franklin said “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I think that sums it up quite nicely.

Until governments do everything in their powers to care for every single person in the country, then spying on citizens to prevent a terrorist attack every 10-15 years is seriously misguided.

More people die of hunger each year, than are at any kind of risk from a terror attack. It's a completely irrational reaction.

[arista]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But I think that's a different issue, so just because that happens, it doesn't make it ok for their spying methods to be revealed.

If the american people have issue with the drone strikes, they should protest against them and not vote for Obamas party next time.

They Do Protest In America , South America
and the World.



Its his last term in power
He can kill who he wants now


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...tion-user-data

Look at this Microsoft giving People Private Data to the NSA in America.

Fecking Poxy Bill Gates.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But I think that's a different issue, so just because that happens, it doesn't make it ok for their spying methods to be revealed.

If the american people have issue with the drone strikes, they should protest against them and not vote for Obamas party next time.

But their spying methods are against the law they have no right to be doing that. They are hounding a man because he exposed the fact they were breaking international law.
What they have done is not ok nor would a change of president change what they do.

They are murdering and torturing people on a huge scale Mr Snowden isnt.
Which is the lesser of the evils?
damn it i replied again.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Whistle blowers have always played an important role in attempting to curb the overreaching powers of government. Benjamin Franklin said “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I think that sums it up quite nicely.

Until governments do everything in their powers to care for every single person in the country, then spying on citizens to prevent a terrorist attack every 10-15 years is seriously misguided.

More people die of hunger each year, than are at any kind of risk from a terror attack. It's a completely irrational reaction.

I'm not against whistle blowers. I agree they play an important role. And I think the government's interest is it's own survival and not the care of every citizen. But I do think in most cases they try to do the most good.

And the fact people are dying of hunger when other countries have more than enough is a sign that the system is far from perfect. But it's the only one we have. And hungry people can't eat Snowden's interviews.

Maybe I'm not understanding sometime but I wasn't at all shocked by the stuff Snowden came out with, I expected that type of stuff to be going on. Maybe I'm missing something with story

Originally Posted by arista

They Do Protest In America , South America
and the World.



Its his last term in power
He can kill who he wants now


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...tion-user-data

Look at this Microsoft giving People Private Data to the NSA in America.

Fecking Poxy Bill Gates.

I'm not surprised though, companies give our info to whoever pays them. And I guess if you're a government you could try get it off them for free.

Originally Posted by bobnot

But their spying methods are against the law they have no right to be doing that. They are hounding a man because he exposed the fact they were breaking international law.
What they have done is not ok nor would a change of president change what they do.

They are murdering and torturing people on a huge scale Mr Snowden isnt.
Which is the lesser of the evils?
damn it i replied again.

But I disagree that their spying methods are against the law. The spy organisation is operating on the front line, the law hasn't caught up with the internet yet.

And I don't see it as a choice to agree with torture or agree with thinking what Snowden did was right.

I don't see the CIA as an evil organisation, and I don't see the American government as such either. But I do see what Snowden did as something that could have harmed his own country.

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I'm not against whistle blowers. I agree they play an important role. And I think the government's interest is it's own survival and not the care of every citizen. But I do think in most cases they try to do the most good.

And the fact people are dying of hunger when other countries have more than enough is a sign that the system is far from perfect. But it's the only one we have. And hungry people can't eat Snowden's interviews.

Maybe I'm not understanding sometime but I wasn't at all shocked by the stuff Snowden came out with, I expected that type of stuff to be going on. Maybe I'm missing something with story

You're not misunderstanding anything at all, you just have a different perspective on the situation, and to be honest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We just view things differently.

I personally, would not swap freedom for security, but I only have words because whether we like it or not, that's exactly the system that we all live by. We're all being spied on regardless of how we feel about it, and the fact you weren't shocked by it, just shows exactly where civilisation is today..

I really love the ideals of democracy set out by the founders (barring the odd slave or two, but whatchagonnadoo?), but the America that exists today, is about as far away from that ideal as you could get.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is constantly being affronted by the government, and the government in place at the moment is about as liberal as it gets (they really aren't liberal, but in fact at best a centrist/centre right government).

When governments have powers to do what they like, then that's far more dangerous to the long term well being of the population, than a couple of planes being flown into buildings once in a while.

The dangers we all face by terrorism are minuscule compared to the massive over reach that has taken place ever since. There is no right or wrong on this issue, you've just reached a different conclusion from the same information.

Dying as a free man just seems so much more appealing to me, than living in the materialisation of 1984.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

You're not misunderstanding anything at all, you just have a different perspective on the situation, and to be honest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We just view things differently.

I personally, would not swap freedom for security, but I only have words because whether we like it or not, that's exactly the system that we all live by. We're all being spied on regardless of how we feel about it, and the fact you weren't shocked by it, just shows exactly where civilisation is today..

I really love the ideals of democracy set out by the founders (barring the odd slave or two, but whatchagonnadoo?), but the America that exists today, is about as far away from that ideal as you could get.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is constantly being affronted by the government, and the government in place at the moment is about as liberal as it gets (they really aren't liberal, but in fact at best a centrist/centre right government).

When governments have powers to do what they like, then that's far more dangerous to the long term well being of the population, than a couple of planes being flown into buildings once in a while.

The dangers we all face by terrorism are minuscule compared to the massive over reach that has taken place ever since. There is no right or wrong on this issue, you've just reached a different conclusion from the same information.

Dying as a free man just seems so much more appealing to me, than living in the materialisation of 1984.

I think it was on QI that they mentioned that one of the reasons america was competitive in manufacturing was because of the fact that prisoners there are used as slave labour. So I think the place exists at a cost, I'm not naive, the reality of the country is that's unforgiving and it's paranoid, but it also creates a lot of beauty.

But yea I don't see another way for their government to act other than to spy on people. If they don't plan for and prepare against worst case scenarios, I think the country would be overrun by crazy fundamentalists. It could be that the reasons we are so much less likely to die from them, is because the amount being spent is working.