[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Exodus 21:1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
…
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Lev 25:1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai…

Lev 25:39 ” ‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

47 ” ‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. 53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.

54 ” ‘Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

The bible permits slavery with direct commandments from God. The rules are somewhat complicated, with differences between Hebrews vs. gentiles and men vs. women. The verses above are not all the rules on slavery, but they are direct quotes from God if you believe the bible to be literal.

For Hebrews, slavery was a way to pay off a debt. After 6 years of work, a Hebrew slave would be set free in the year of Jubilee – as long as the slave is male. A father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Exodus 21:7-11 describe rules for selling a daughter as slave, but the verses seem to interchange female slavery and marriage.

Exodus 21:20-21 permit slave owners to beat their slaves so that they are unconscious for 2-3 days!

Leviticus 25:44-45 describes how gentile slaves are to be treated, which is very different from Hebrew slaves. Gentile slaves are not to be set free in the year of Jubillee but are passed from father to son as an inheritance.

There you go guys and girls. You can have slaves if you want. God wills it.

At the risk of repeating myself, because I've said this on another thread when someone was cutting and pasting Leviticus... you have to think about when 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, were written. It was normal to own slaves back then. It was fine to own slaves up until about 200 years ago in this country! Do we think it's okay now? No we don't. Do we think we should be killed for planting two different grains in one field, or for wearing two different fabrics on our body, or for cutting our hair? No, of course not. You have to interpret the laws - as a lawyer, let me tell you, laws are interpreted every day - and you have to think about what those interpretations mean. You cannot say that you will live to the letter of these laws because it is impossible to live a good, responsible, happy, lawful life if you think that these ancient rules must be taken literally. No one takes the Bible literally unless they are a fool.

it's never good for me to see my faith reduced to a series of incoherent cut and paste jobs with an air of ridicule running through it. I do hope that's not the way this thread will be going.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Livia

At the risk of repeating myself, because I've said this on another thread when someone was cutting and pasting Leviticus... you have to think about when 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, were written. It was normal to own slaves back then. It was fine to own slaves up until about 200 years ago in this country! Do we think it's okay now? No we don't. Do we think we should be killed for planting two different grains in one field, or for wearing two different fabrics on our body, or for cutting our hair? No, of course not. You have to interpret the laws - as a lawyer, let me tell you, laws are interpreted every day - and you have to think about what those interpretations mean. You cannot say that you will live to the letter of these laws because it is impossible to live a good, responsible, happy, lawful life if you think that these ancient rules must be taken literally. No one takes the Bible literally unless they are a fool.

it's never good for me to see my faith reduced to a series of incoherent cut and paste jobs with an air of ridicule running through it. I do hope that's not the way this thread will be going.

Ah the old moral relativism argument. Well if something is applicable then and not now Then obviously the word of God is subjective and not objective as it's open to change and no longer immutable or perfect. Kinda screws up his omniscience though if he didn't see it coming that in the modern era we live in we frown on slavery. Oh well.

And play the persecution card if ya like. I am thankful I live in a day and age where I can question things like the bible without been noosed up as an infidel.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm fascinated by your posts on this Jules. I'm familiar with some long-standing theories that Jesus was an Essene, but nothing which has had the wealth of detail in your posts. What is your source?

Google.... I put in Jesus and the Essenes. There is a lot there and it seems as though many of the Great Masters went through this mystical order. Mary Magdalen was one and it is said that she was the wife of Jesus (have read this before) and she in turn received the Christ Spirit and became a great teacher herself. I have spent quite a bit of time reading this afternoon, have quite enjoyed myself. As we know one link leads to another. There is a free booklet but I also purchased 4 other downloads.


http://www.essenespirit.com/principles.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Jules, I'd rather forget about my embarrassing part in the events that transpired yesterday so I haven't gone back through the pages but what was it you asked me to read from your blog?

LOL my little piece on santa clause and Reubens the Royal. Amongst the serious pieces I was having a bit of fun to keep the blog lighthearted.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Ah the old moral relativism argument. Well if something is applicable then and not now Then obviously the word of God is subjective and not objective as it's open to change and no longer immutable or perfect. Kinda screws up his omniscience though if he didn't see it coming that in the modern era we live in we frown on slavery. Oh well.

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Human beings can't exist without laws. It isn't laws that make people bad, it's their nature. As for laws being made just to manipulate the masses, that's a comment that could only come from someone living in a country where law and order is taken completely for granted.

I personally think that this is nonsense. All other creatures manage to exist without laws and have done throughout history - most only "ceasing to exist" because of the ever increasing number of humans.

And that's the real issue. Humans, in small communities, in small numbers as we really should exist, are more than capable of existing without laws. The problems only start to arise when too many of us start to try to exist within too small a space, with limited resources. You can see this in action in the modern world quite easily. Small, remote communities need very few rules or laws to exist relatively peacefully. A city like London needs many or it will decend into chaos.

Our only real problem is that we're too clever. Our intelligence over lesser animals makes us resilient... it makes survival easy... and that's why the global population is increasing at a rate of nearly 100 million every year. Too many people, not enough planet. That is the ONLY reason we "need" laws to avoid chaos. If there was a global population of something like 50 million humans, spread fairly evenly, living in close-knit communities, the letter of the law would be all but obsolete. Unfortunately... we're approaching 7 billion of us, swarming like ants and breeding like rabbits. That is why we "need" law and order. To keep the heaving masses of us in line.

Of course, funnily enough, the more organised religions with stricter commandments and doctrines started to mysteriously appear at around the time that masses of humans were starting to band into larger towns and cities...

[Bluerang1]

Originally Posted by Livia

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

Slay a bit

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

All that "rule of three" and "hearth and home" stuff isn't anything to do with real Paganism and everything to do with modern Wicca which as we know has been made up in bits and pieces over the last hundred years or so with bits borrowed from other more ancient religions, Celtic, Norse etc.. And no, there is no "bible" for Pagans because the religion was virtually wiped out by the Catholics about four hundred years ago. Same goes for Druidism. There are lots of books, lots of papers... but they're all safely tucked away in the Vatican. There is dark and light in everything, people are good and bad... don't imagine for a minute that people who think they're witches are all good and positive.

If you read the story of how the Ten Commandments came to be you wouldn't have to ask why I think there was disorder before then, but the laws were applicable to the Jews at that time.

Human beings can't exist without laws. It isn't laws that make people bad, it's their nature. As for laws being made just to manipulate the masses, that's a comment that could only come from someone living in a country where law and order is taken completely for granted.

I only mentioned the rule of three to scott.. because he likes craft.

The hearth of the home is very important to pagans actually, I have no wish to be categorised as this or that thank you, your take on history is not that accurate either as there are still practicing druids.
I have no idea what is locked in the vatican, the true number of crimes committed in the name of Catholicism maybe?

I have never said there shouldn't be laws... however making up laws and passing them of as the words of 'god'? that's sinful.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Originally Posted by Livia

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

yaaaaaaaas.gif

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

Where has he said he has 'all the answers'? nowhere.

Scholars know as much as you or I as like you and I they were not there.
And the interpretations by the differing faiths mindblowingly complex and contradictory.
It's not about coming up with something, it's appreciating diversity, the meaning of life is never going to be the same for one person as another and smelting it down to who is the most devout is pointless as nobody knows * for certain* what the 'true path' if ever there indeed was one is.

[Marsh.]

"Forgive kizzy Lord, for she knows not what she does"

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;7322008][QUOTE=Kizzy;7321969]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Over the years I've read huge chunks of it too, enough to make an informed opinion that it isn't for me.

That's your prerogative. I've never stated otherwise.

I'm sure anyone schooled here has had enough stuffed down their throats at their 'institutions of learning' to get a grasp of Christian ideology too.

Then don't subscribe to this interchange of views between Kyle and myself. For myself, I attended schools with Religious Education and Assembly, but i never had anything 'stuffed down my throat' because I wasn't interested in it so didn't think about it, let alone believed in it at the time.

'The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years.' which bible are you referring to here?

I'm referring to the Christian/Judeo Bible:

[U]Christianity Stack Exchange[/U]
We don't know exactly when the books of the Bible were written, but we can, through cross-referencing external sources, determine when the historical figures in the Bible lived. Either way, the common consensus is that the writing of the books of the Bible began some time after 1500 BC, and concluded prior to 100 AD. This would be a period of about 1600 years.

Biblica

The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago.The New Testament was written during a much shorter period, i.e. during the last half of the first century AD.

Got Questions Kidz

The Bible was written over about 1,500 years from 1400 BC to AD 90.

Minster Book

When was the Bible written?

It was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ).

Bible Bell

As to when "pen was put to paper," the oldest book (Job) was written c. 2150 BC. The youngest book (Revelation) was written c. 90 AD.
Thus, it took about 2200 years to write the 66 books of the Bible.

Thank you for your comments.

It's not a private debate between kyle and yourself is it?

You were only 1200yrs out on when the bible was written then? that's reassuring. It's becoming a piece that some cherrypick from and manipulate to suit their own agenda, the whole of the King James editions for instance..
The messages the real messages are lost... gone.
What we have left is a mish mash of rehashed rules and regulations that make little or no sense... or their so screamingly obvious that you don't have to be a practicing a religion to know not to do them as they are morally wrong.
And we all have a conscience don't we? Free will?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

"Forgive kizzy Lord, for she knows not what she does"

Can't touch me, I'm the immaculate heart innit?

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

yas @ wicca being being mentioned though

easily the best religion

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

At the risk of repeating myself, because I've said this on another thread when someone was cutting and pasting Leviticus... you have to think about when 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, were written. It was normal to own slaves back then. It was fine to own slaves up until about 200 years ago in this country! Do we think it's okay now? No we don't. Do we think we should be killed for planting two different grains in one field, or for wearing two different fabrics on our body, or for cutting our hair? No, of course not. You have to interpret the laws - as a lawyer, let me tell you, laws are interpreted every day - and you have to think about what those interpretations mean. You cannot say that you will live to the letter of these laws because it is impossible to live a good, responsible, happy, lawful life if you think that these ancient rules must be taken literally. No one takes the Bible literally unless they are a fool.

it's never good for me to see my faith reduced to a series of incoherent cut and paste jobs with an air of ridicule running through it. I do hope that's not the way this thread will be going.

agreed, the cheap shots against Religion are pathetic, so many anti religious haters, or atheists know little or nothing of theology and take bits and pieces of works and tales way out of context to support their agenda. I also agree the tendency to take everything far too literally is frankly moronic. such people need to heavily medicated

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Scott

yas @ wicca being being mentioned though

easily the best religion

I bet you don't know about wicca you just enjoy watching the Craft.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

oh

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

"Forgive kizzy Lord, for she knows not what she does"

Nor understandeth what she sayeth

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I bet you don't know about wicca you just enjoy watching the Craft.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Nor understandeth what she sayeth

What are you having trouble with my son?....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Scott

yas @ wicca being being mentioned though

easily the best religion

I used to love Wicca:

"This sprawling metropolis which has resisted..."

Sorry Scott, that's Whicker I'm thinking of - Alan Whicker.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

bye

[Marsh.]

Spoiler:

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Spoiler:

FK me -- Peed meself again