[user104658]

Most of those things have absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. You can't just blame all of the UK's **** ups on Europe and pretend that everything would be perfect if we had stayed out... We've managed to create all of these inefficiencies and mismanagements all by ourselves.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Most of those things have absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. You can't just blame all of the UK's **** ups on Europe and pretend that everything would be perfect if we had stayed out... We've managed to create all of these inefficiencies and mismanagements all by ourselves.

Maybe ...maybe not, but to hear people go on and on about the benefits of being in Europe bearing in mind the state of the Country, I for one struggle to see how this so called benefit has translated itself into helping or increasing the quality of life of the man on the street.

I have listed in this post and others the negative effects of being in Europe and how this has had a detrimental effect on most peoples lives.

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Maybe ...maybe not, but to hear people go on and on about the benefits of being in Europe bearing in mind the state of the Country, I for one struggle to see how this so called benefit has translated itself into helping or increasing the quality of life of the man on the street.

I have listed in this post and others the negative effects of being in Europe and how this has had a detrimental effect on most peoples lives.

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone....

Nope...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Nope...

I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect .

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect .

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

You make me laugh.........you really do, with your patronising , morally superior , holier than thou attitude to this whole issue.

So you think everythings great in the garden do you ? and that the Main political parties have done such a great job in the last 50 years.

Nothing is wrong, everybody's happy and Britain is Best.... you need to get out a bit more and take a look around. do you think the people who now HAVE to use food banks to survive would agree with you.

Or the people forced to queue for work or work on zero hour Contracts also share you strangely rosy view of things.

Or young people who finally find employment need to work for 30 years just to save a deposit for a house they will never get a mortgage for.

Or the vast numbers forever living on benefits........

There are real problems with this Country and they are getting worse........Fact

The Main political parties do not give a dam in reality, why would they , to them it's a big game. why do they care they are all wealthy public school educated toffs , why would they really give a stuff.

So when a new party comes along like UKIP and says in true Emporer's new clothes style.......hang on wait a minute things are actually pretty bad

There are no jobs, no houses, full to bursting hospitals, full to bursting schools, congested roads, congested railways .......and 15 Million more people than 50 years ago....that is demonstrable, real NOT imagined.

If someone stands up and says why are we paying millions into the EU and then being forced to take millions of people and feed,house,school and give them free healthcare.........then why is that treated as a joke ??

Maybe it's time for a radical shakeup of our mainstream policies.......because I don't think the ones we have been using for the last few decades are working.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

There are only unsubstantiated 'dubious figures' from the pro-EU lobby on here T.S., along with wildly fictional claims which have no basis in fact, such as those above; "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration."

The above claim is as you say "nonsense" but only in the context of you claiming that any of the 'anti-EU' members have stated as much, because NO ONE on here has claimed the above and I challenge you to corroborate your ludicrous statement with proof that they have.

False statements - like false claims - are easily rebutted, and it does not matter one fig how loudly or persistently such statements and claims are made, it does make them true nor persuade the intelligent reader of their validity.

I cannot believe some of the prejudiced views on here written by FM's who fervently believe that they - and only they - have a monopoly on the 'Truth' and that the rest of us are unintelligent, ill-read, naive idiots.

'Unfettered immigration' is just ONE of the reasons why I desperately want to see the UK quit the EU, but it is not THE reason as you constantly allege, and your persistent use of the term 'immigration' in your rants is 'Strawman'.

There is NOT ONE VALID reason for us to remain in the UK, but many VALID reasons for the UK to exit the EU as soon as possible because from the moment that the abhorrent and traitorous Ted Heath took us into the EU (Common Market) and deceived the nation by declaring that any fears we had that "we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty were completely unjustified", the EU has been an UNMITIGATED TROJAN HORSE of a DISASTER for this country.

If you have ONE VALID reason to support your PRO-EU stance, then please post it with corroborating evidence - genuine facts and data - and I will be really pleased to concede.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Well said TS

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Nope...

Wow,I am surprised at that answer, there are rarely ever situations where there are only negatives and no positives at all.
That is something you have always said before too which I have always respected you for saying too.

There must be strong reasons why big businesses want us in the EU, just from the business angle of things.
Some aren't bothered about the EU admittedly but I feel sure you know fine well the bulk of business want the easiest access to EU markets and the UK in the EU.

You really don't believe in this world as things are,that nations are better united and connected than being separatist.
You say there are no positives at all to the EU,that is a shocker really.

For me,being part of something is far better than watching it but never having any say in it at all, and that is why with such a strong and massive place like the EU in place, I see only danger in a nation like the UK not being in it.

I also am sure you know too, that to leave but to trade with the EU, the UK would still have to accept strict EU conditions to do so but being outside we would have no control over such conditions, or how they would be applied in the future either.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone....

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

From the linked website you provide above Red:

"CReAM is an independent and interdisciplinary research centre located in the Department of Economics at University College London."

Oh My!, INDEPENDENT: that means 'IMPARTIAL', 'NO VESTED INTEREST' doesn't it?

And the authors and all the reasearch staff are all intellectuals based in a British University as well.

Then, Gee, their pro-immigration 50 page investigatory Paper entitled; "THE FISCAL EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION TO THE UK" has to be scrupulously fair, hasn't it?

What's more, its conclusion that European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services" must be true also.

I can't help but notice though that this 'investigatory research paper' only deals with immigration since 2005, and then only specifically with EUROPEAN immigrants, but 'Hey Ho' as my good friend Forrest says; "Independent is as impartial does".

So who are "Cream"? Let's have a look:

Christian Dustmann, Director

Jonathan Wadsworth, Deputy Director

Ian Preston, Deputy Research Director

Marco Alfano, Senior Research Officer

Thomas Cornelissen, Senior Research Officer

Anna Okatenko, Senior Research Officer

Joseph-Simon Görlach, Research Officer

Ines Helm, Research Officer

Luigi Minale, Research Officer

Anna Raute, Research Officer

Jerome Adda, Research Fellow

Samuel Berlinski, Research Fellow

Pedro Carneiro, Research Fellow

Francesco Fasani, Research Fellow

Tommaso Frattini, Research Fellow

Albrecht Glitz, Research Fellow

Steve Machin, Research Fellow

Suphanit Piyapromdee, Research Fellow

Imran Rasul, Research Fellow

Uta Schoenberg, Research Fellow

And for maximum balance, let's add 'The Coordinator',

Maria Lambrianidou

Independent/Impartial/No Vested Interest..... Mmmm. The last 'Independent' paper I read similar to this was: "Why Victorian London Needs Waif And Stray Children" and the authors were some guys called ...err... yeah that's it, Fagin and Bill Sikes.

Please excuse me while I burst into laughter, then I will post a response complete with several links to rebuttal articles - all from as equally educated and qualified academics, and with suitably impressive facts and data as the above 'independent' paper.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

From the linked website you provide above Red:

"CReAM is an independent and interdisciplinary research centre located in the Department of Economics at University College London."

Oh My!, INDEPENDENT: that means 'IMPARTIAL', 'NO VESTED INTEREST' doesn't it?

And the authors and all the reasearch staff are all intellectuals based in a British University as well.

Then, Gee, their pro-immigration 50 page investigatory Paper entitled; "THE FISCAL EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION TO THE UK" has to be scrupulously fair, hasn't it?

What's more, its conclusion that European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services" must be true also.

I can't help but notice though that this 'investigatory research paper' only deals with immigration since 2005, and then only specifically with EUROPEAN immigrants, but 'Hey Ho' as my good friend Forrest says; "Independent is as impartial does".

So who are "Cream"? Let's have a look:

Christian Dustmann, Director

Jonathan Wadsworth, Deputy Director

Ian Preston, Deputy Research Director

Marco Alfano, Senior Research Officer

Thomas Cornelissen, Senior Research Officer

Anna Okatenko, Senior Research Officer

Joseph-Simon Görlach, Research Officer

Ines Helm, Research Officer

Luigi Minale, Research Officer

Anna Raute, Research Officer

Jerome Adda, Research Fellow

Samuel Berlinski, Research Fellow

Pedro Carneiro, Research Fellow

Francesco Fasani, Research Fellow

Tommaso Frattini, Research Fellow

Albrecht Glitz, Research Fellow

Steve Machin, Research Fellow

Suphanit Piyapromdee, Research Fellow

Imran Rasul, Research Fellow

Uta Schoenberg, Research Fellow

And for maximum balance, let's add 'The Coordinator',

Maria Lambrianidou

Independent/Impartial/No Vested Interest..... Mmmm. The last 'Independent' paper I read similar to this was: "Why Victorian London Needs Waif And Stray Children" and the authors were some guys called ...err... yeah that's it, Fagin and Bill Sikes.

Please excuse me while I burst into laughter, then I will post a response complete with several links to rebuttal articles - all from as equally educated and qualified academics, and with suitably impressive facts and data as the above 'independent' paper.

I'm glad my post and link made you laugh kirk. There's not enough laughter in the world!

Goes off and has a little snigger to myself.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm glad my post and link made you laugh kirk. There's not enough laughter in the world!

Goes off and has a little snigger to myself.

I love you Red - even if we are diametrically opposed on most subjects (it seems)

p.s - There sure is a lot of good ole foreign names on that list of impartial worthies though.... Isn't there?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I love you Red - even if we are diametrically opposed on most subjects (it seems)

p.s - There sure is a lot of good ole foreign names on that list of impartial worthies though.... Isn't there?

I'm waiting for the information you promised, I'm sure all the names associated will be good old English ones.

This makes an interesting read,

'Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.'


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...im-benefits-eu

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

There are around two million Brits living and working in Europe. There are about sixty four million citizens in the UK.

It's fair to say that there are also many benefits of leaving the EU if you yourself were interested enough to read them.