[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Maybe ...maybe not, but to hear people go on and on about the benefits of being in Europe bearing in mind the state of the Country, I for one struggle to see how this so called benefit has translated itself into helping or increasing the quality of life of the man on the street.

I have listed in this post and others the negative effects of being in Europe and how this has had a detrimental effect on most peoples lives.

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone....

Nope...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Nope...

I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect .

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect .

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

You make me laugh.........you really do, with your patronising , morally superior , holier than thou attitude to this whole issue.

So you think everythings great in the garden do you ? and that the Main political parties have done such a great job in the last 50 years.

Nothing is wrong, everybody's happy and Britain is Best.... you need to get out a bit more and take a look around. do you think the people who now HAVE to use food banks to survive would agree with you.

Or the people forced to queue for work or work on zero hour Contracts also share you strangely rosy view of things.

Or young people who finally find employment need to work for 30 years just to save a deposit for a house they will never get a mortgage for.

Or the vast numbers forever living on benefits........

There are real problems with this Country and they are getting worse........Fact

The Main political parties do not give a dam in reality, why would they , to them it's a big game. why do they care they are all wealthy public school educated toffs , why would they really give a stuff.

So when a new party comes along like UKIP and says in true Emporer's new clothes style.......hang on wait a minute things are actually pretty bad

There are no jobs, no houses, full to bursting hospitals, full to bursting schools, congested roads, congested railways .......and 15 Million more people than 50 years ago....that is demonstrable, real NOT imagined.

If someone stands up and says why are we paying millions into the EU and then being forced to take millions of people and feed,house,school and give them free healthcare.........then why is that treated as a joke ??

Maybe it's time for a radical shakeup of our mainstream policies.......because I don't think the ones we have been using for the last few decades are working.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

You make me laugh.........you really do, with your patronising , morally superior , holier than thou attitude to this whole issue.

So you think everythings great in the garden do you ? and that the Main political parties have done such a great job in the last 50 years.

Nothing is wrong, everybody's happy and Britain is Best.... you need to get out a bit more and take a look around. do you think the people who now HAVE to use food banks to survive would agree with you.

Or the people forced to queue for work or work on zero hour Contracts also share you strangely rosy view of things.

Or young people who finally find employment need to work for 30 years just to save a deposit for a house they will never get a mortgage for.

Or the vast numbers forever living on benefits........

There are real problems with this Country and they are getting worse........Fact

The Main political parties do not give a dam in reality, why would they , to them it's a big game. why do they care they are all wealthy public school educated toffs , why would they really give a stuff.

So when a new party comes along like UKIP and says in true Emporer's new clothes style.......hang on wait a minute things are actually pretty bad

There are no jobs, no houses, full to bursting hospitals, full to bursting schools, congested roads, congested railways .......and 15 Million more people than 50 years ago....that is demonstrable, real NOT imagined.

If someone stands up and says why are we paying millions into the EU and then being forced to take millions of people and feed,house,school and give them free healthcare.........then why is that treated as a joke ??

Maybe it's time for a radical shakeup of our mainstream policies.......because I don't think the ones we have been using for the last few decades are working.

When did I say that things in the UK are great? They're not, they're ****.

I just don't buy into the propaganda that this is because of the EU or immigrants.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

There are only unsubstantiated 'dubious figures' from the pro-EU lobby on here T.S., along with wildly fictional claims which have no basis in fact, such as those above; "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration."

The above claim is as you say "nonsense" but only in the context of you claiming that any of the 'anti-EU' members have stated as much, because NO ONE on here has claimed the above and I challenge you to corroborate your ludicrous statement with proof that they have.

False statements - like false claims - are easily rebutted, and it does not matter one fig how loudly or persistently such statements and claims are made, it does make them true nor persuade the intelligent reader of their validity.

I cannot believe some of the prejudiced views on here written by FM's who fervently believe that they - and only they - have a monopoly on the 'Truth' and that the rest of us are unintelligent, ill-read, naive idiots.

'Unfettered immigration' is just ONE of the reasons why I desperately want to see the UK quit the EU, but it is not THE reason as you constantly allege, and your persistent use of the term 'immigration' in your rants is 'Strawman'.

There is NOT ONE VALID reason for us to remain in the UK, but many VALID reasons for the UK to exit the EU as soon as possible because from the moment that the abhorrent and traitorous Ted Heath took us into the EU (Common Market) and deceived the nation by declaring that any fears we had that "we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty were completely unjustified", the EU has been an UNMITIGATED TROJAN HORSE of a DISASTER for this country.

If you have ONE VALID reason to support your PRO-EU stance, then please post it with corroborating evidence - genuine facts and data - and I will be really pleased to concede.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There are only unsubstantiated 'dubious figures' from the pro-EU lobby on here T.S., along with wildly fictional claims which have no basis in fact, such as those above; "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration."

The above claim is as you say "nonsense" but only in the context of you claiming that any of the 'anti-EU' members have stated as much, because NO ONE on here has claimed the above and I challenge you to corroborate your ludicrous statement with proof that they have.

False statements - like false claims - are easily rebutted, and it does not matter one fig how loudly or persistently such statements and claims are made, it does make them true nor persuade the intelligent reader of their validity.

I cannot believe some of the prejudiced views on here written by FM's who fervently believe that they - and only they - have a monopoly on the 'Truth' and that the rest of us are unintelligent, ill-read, naive idiots.

'Unfettered immigration' is just ONE of the reasons why I desperately want to see the UK quit the EU, but it is not THE reason as you constantly allege, and your persistent use of the term 'immigration' in your rants is 'Strawman'.

There is NOT ONE VALID reason for us to remain in the UK, but many VALID reasons for the UK to exit the EU as soon as possible because from the moment that the abhorrent and traitorous Ted Heath took us into the EU (Common Market) and deceived the nation by declaring that any fears we had that "we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty were completely unjustified", the EU has been an UNMITIGATED TROJAN HORSE of a DISASTER for this country.

If you have ONE VALID reason to support your PRO-EU stance, then please post it with corroborating evidence - genuine facts and data - and I will be really pleased to concede.

You're right, Livia figures weren't just dubious they were straight up false. You can verify this on the Office of national Statistics website. No articles, no propaganda, no bias, cold hard figures. The EU is our number one source of trade by a mile. Livia said it was the US. It's incorrect.

Which anti eu member has blamed every little NHS and road maintenance problem on the EU? Nedusa has, in several posts. There's one a few posts up. Have a read.

As for valid and corroborated reasons, again, the figures are right there. Unencumbered trade throughout Europe is a massive economic gain. GO and LOOK AT THE ONS DOCUMENTS. I am not going to sit and spoon feed them to you. Trade within Europe accounts for as near as half of our entire global trade, it is absolutely essential, it will continue to be absolutely essential, and being out of the EU would cost untold billions in revenue. Not one serious political party wants us out of the EU. There's a reason for that. They know what the cost would be. The only party that does want us out (ukip) has proven itself time and time again to be littered with scapegoating bigots.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Well said TS

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

theres endless information and different ways of looking at all these matters, to try and state such a black and white opinion comes across as immature

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Nope...

Wow,I am surprised at that answer, there are rarely ever situations where there are only negatives and no positives at all.
That is something you have always said before too which I have always respected you for saying too.

There must be strong reasons why big businesses want us in the EU, just from the business angle of things.
Some aren't bothered about the EU admittedly but I feel sure you know fine well the bulk of business want the easiest access to EU markets and the UK in the EU.

You really don't believe in this world as things are,that nations are better united and connected than being separatist.
You say there are no positives at all to the EU,that is a shocker really.

For me,being part of something is far better than watching it but never having any say in it at all, and that is why with such a strong and massive place like the EU in place, I see only danger in a nation like the UK not being in it.

I also am sure you know too, that to leave but to trade with the EU, the UK would still have to accept strict EU conditions to do so but being outside we would have no control over such conditions, or how they would be applied in the future either.