[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What's the issue with the Guardian?...

I find them Fine
Telling us about Ed Balls Feck Up today

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What's the issue with the Guardian?...

[the truth]

the mass of abuses and cover ups and innocenents starving to death in hospitals all happened under labours watch...the filth the record mrsa all happened under labour the near bankruptcy labour....just look what welsh labour gets away with in wales...welsh labour have reduced their nhs budget, the uk tory government has increased it. at present id trust the tories marginally more than labour with the nhs but I don't trust the tories either

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by the truth

the mass of abuses and cover ups and innocenents starving to death in hospitals all happened under labours watch...the filth the record mrsa all happened under labour the near bankruptcy labour....just look what welsh labour gets away with in wales...welsh labour have reduced their nhs budget, the uk tory government has increased it. at present id trust the tories marginally more than labour with the nhs but I don't trust the tories either

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Just because you yell FACT doesn't change that what you just said was an opinion.

No Josh - There is a wealth of difference between FACT and opinion.

When I state that both Labour and Tory Governments have regularly reneged on pre-Election promises or even done complete 'U' turns -- that is a FACT.

But those who state what Nigel Farage and UKIP will do if they ever attained power -- That is opinion, and not even qualified opinion at that.

[bots]

This kind of scaremongering talk always come up.

How many Conservative governments have been in office over the lifetime of the NHS. Has any one of them even attempted to remove the intrinsic right of the individual to free health care?

The NHS is the biggest sink for money in the UK. It always becomes bloated with bureaucrats when labour are in power and trimmed of those same bureaucrats when the tories are in power. Approaches may be different between governments and the NHS may need to evolve to stay modern, but it isn't going anywhere and the tories are no threat to it at all.

[Kizzy]

I'm not sure what the inference that huuuuuge picture has for you LT, what in your opinion wold be a legitimate media source?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

This kind of scaremongering talk always come up.

How many Conservative governments have been in office over the lifetime of the NHS. Has any one of them even attempted to remove the intrinsic right of the individual to free health care?

The NHS is the biggest sink for money in the UK. It always becomes bloated with bureaucrats when labour are in power and trimmed of those same bureaucrats when the tories are in power. Approaches may be different between governments and the NHS may need to evolve to stay modern, but it isn't going anywhere and the tories are no threat to it at all.

A lot of truths in there, bitontheslide.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

This kind of scaremongering talk always come up.

How many Conservative governments have been in office over the lifetime of the NHS. Has any one of them even attempted to remove the intrinsic right of the individual to free health care?

The NHS is the biggest sink for money in the UK. It always becomes bloated with bureaucrats when labour are in power and trimmed of those same bureaucrats when the tories are in power. Approaches may be different between governments and the NHS may need to evolve to stay modern, but it isn't going anywhere and the tories are no threat to it at all.

They are a threat, outsourcing is so covert, selling the juicy contracts isn't modernising.

[joeysteele]

I don't think it would be in any way fair to say that Conservative govts; or Conservative PMs since it was created have been any threat to the basic foundations of the NHS until recent ones.

Margaret Thatcher presided over a massive run down of the NHS, to be fair to him,John Major tried to turn the tide but by the time he was PM the NHS was on its knees and really broken.

However, this PM we have now, leads one of the nastiest govts; ever post war,when he says something about the NHS,his actions towards it contradict all he says.

He promised, no top down re-organisation on the NHS.
Then at a time when he was bringing in austerity measures, he wasted funds on a costly top down re-organisation that has caused confusion, massive problems and despair almost among NHS staff.
This PM is not to be trusted, there has always been elements of some parties to alter the NHS and healthcare to a more 'private' means.

This for me, is for sure, one Conservative PM who is really dangerous to the NHS and should never, after already breaking his promise as to it, be allowed to preside over it ever again.
Somehow, I felt I couldn't trust his word in 2010 when he said it was safe with him and that there would be no top down re-organisation.
I am really glad I didn't trust him, since even though he failed to win an overall majority and hadn't the policy in his manifesto, so no voter got the chance to vote for or against it, he went ahead and did that top down re-organisation.
One of the biggest upheavals in the NHS for decades.

He had no permission and no authority to do it,but did anyway.
The man has to,for me, take the title for being the biggest of political liars and con men in politics today.
I wouldn't trust him to bring a bedpan never mind oversee the NHS for 5 more years.

He is actually a disgrace to the decent Conservative PMs gone before him.

[JoshBB]

All I can say leathertrumpet is WOW you are not ready to hear about the morning star

[Kazanne]

The NHS is quite safe in Tory hands imo,it may have changes along the way ,but it will still be there ,oppositions just scaremongering.

[Vicky.]

Depends really. If you have enough cash to pay for treatment, then no need to worry

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

The NHS is quite safe in Tory hands imo,it may have changes along the way ,but it will still be there ,oppositions just scaremongering.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Depends really. If you have enough cash to pay for treatment, then no need to worry

I use vicky's post in response to yours Kazanne.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

The NHS is quite safe in Tory hands imo,it may have changes along the way ,but it will still be there ,oppositions just scaremongering.

Really, I have an Uncle who is a consultant in the NHS, 2 Cousins who are Doctors and also cousins who are Nurses,spanning right from Inverness in Scotland, right down to Exeter..
All of them. not a dissenting voice among them, have said to me, if the Conservatives run the NHS for another 5 years,watch out because chaos is looming and it will be disastrous.

The 3 who are Doctors voted Conservative in 2010 and for the very first time in their voting lives will not be doing so in May.

I prefer to listen to those who are battling to save lives and who actually work in the NHS,rather than a political liar like David Cameron who has turned the NHS almost upside down, creating confusion and disarray for NHS staff with a massive costly and unnecessary but very wrong top down re-organisation of same,which he 'promised' never to do then did so less than a year later.

I say again, anyone who genuinely cares about the NHS and its real founding principles,if you decide to hand it over again to this particular Conservative leader,who cannot be trusted with it, and this Conservative cabinet,then don't be surprised or moan when you see it near destroyed as to what it should be or what it originally stood for.
Finally if that happens,that he does get his hands on it for another 5 years, then in all truth, god and all powers that be really help those most vulnerable and those who cannot afford to pay anything as to full and proper health care.

I'll take the word of my family who work there and who try to remain dedicated even against the odds stacked against them by this govts; policies anyday, over the man who deliberately conned the voters in 2010 over a top down re-organisation which he said would never happen under his govt:
No one can say they didn't see the writing on the wall,or that they haven't been warned.
What he would have done with the NHS had he got an overall majority in 2010,doesn't bear thinking about.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Really, I have an Uncle who is a consultant in the NHS, 2 Cousins who are Doctors and also cousins who are Nurses,spanning right from Inverness in Scotland, right down to Exeter..
All of them. not a dissenting voice among them, have said to me, if the Conservatives run the NHS for another 5 years,watch out because chaos is looming and it will be disastrous.

The 3 who are Doctors voted Conservative in 2010 and for the very first time in their voting lives will not be doing so in May.

I prefer to listen to those who are battling to save lives and who actually work in the NHS,rather than a political liar like David Cameron who has turned the NHS almost upside down, creating confusion and disarray for NHS staff with a massive costly and unnecessary but very wrong top down re-organisation of same,which he 'promised' never to do then did so less than a year later.

I say again, anyone who genuinely cares about the NHS and its real founding principles,if you decide to hand it over again to this particular Conservative leader,who cannot be trusted with it, and this Conservative cabinet,then don't be surprised or moan when you see it near destroyed as to what it should be or what it originally stood for.
Finally if that happens,that he does get his hands on it for another 5 years, then in all truth, god and all powers that be really help those most vulnerable and those who cannot afford to pay anything as to full and proper health care.

I'll take the word of my family who work there and who try to remain dedicated even against the odds stacked against them by this govts; policies anyday, over the man who deliberately conned the voters in 2010 over a top down re-organisation which he said would never happen under his govt:
No one can say they didn't see the writing on the wall,or that they haven't been warned.
What he would have done with the NHS had he got an overall majority in 2010,doesn't bear thinking about.

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

[Kizzy]

'Labour has accused the government of trying to sneak out legislation to accelerate the privatisation of NHS services.

Andy Burnham, the shadow health secretary, said regulations tabled in parliament on 6 February without any government announcement would force all contracts worth more than £625,000 to be put out to tender.

At health questions in the Commons on Tuesday, Burnham revealed the existence of the new public procurement contracts regulations, which he said had been “sneaked out” the day before MPs’ recent parliamentary recess began.

The rules mean that from April 2016 all NHS contracts worth more than €750,000 (£625,000) must be put out to tender, Labour said. Non-NHS organisations, including private health companies such as Virgin Care and Ramsay Health Care will be eligible to bid.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...on-labour-says

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

The NHS is being systematically dismantled and privatised to be bought up by connected individuals in return for kickbacks. Not to make it better.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS is being systematically dismantled and privatised to be bought up by connected individuals in return for kickbacks. Not to make it better.

With respect that's a completely irrelevant statement. It matters not 1 jot if the NHS is restructured and parts privatised, if it makes the service better equipped to meet the needs of the future.

[Kizzy]

Letter from senior health professionals says coalition has left NHS in weakest position ever and calls on people to use votes to reinstate service
(Read the letter in full)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...letter-in-full
Leading doctors in the NHS have accused the coalition government of a catalogue of broken promises, funding cuts and destructive legislation which has left the health service weaker than ever before.

'In a letter to the Guardian, more than 140 senior doctors pass a damning judgment on the government’s stewardship of the NHS, which they say is under pressure because of unnecessary market-oriented changes.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...-record-on-nhs

[DemolitionRed]

I really wanted to get my teeth into this debate, unfortunately I have a bit of a family crisis to deal with.

Hopefully I'll make it back in time to join in.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

With respect that's a completely irrelevant statement. It matters not 1 jot if the NHS is restructured and parts privatised, if it makes the service better equipped to meet the needs of the future.

It does meet the Tories' needs for the future, I suppose. "Hey guys I've had a great idea! If we make sure all of the poor people die young, then we won't have to worry about their pensions!"

And if their billionaire buddies in private healthcare and pharmaceuticals can make some extra £££ from it... bonus, amirite?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

No way, even today those who work in the NHS have said publicly the NHS is not safe.

There is nothing wrong with change,all things have to evolve, once something starts to be run down to the degree where it is really broken, then needs massive financial help,that is what will happen with the NHS under this PMs policies and open the door to private health care with a basic health programme left for those unable to pay for treatment.

He has lied consistently as to the NHS,I am passionate about it because I have family working in it and I hear all the time their fears and genuine concerns for its and their futures.

I do not hate the Tories, I joined here in 2010 and was a supporter of them at that time really.
It was that I have seen this particular PM do and his govt; not only to the NHS but to those sick,disabled, and most vulnerable, that has turned me right against him and this particular govt; he leads.

He hasn't saved costs,he has spent loads on the top down re-organisation that has caused near chaos in the NHS, his targets on cancer care, waiting times are all being missed.
Under Labour knee,hip, and cataract operations had been brought down to a matter of weeks, now people with those problems,who are in the main elderly, are again waiting months as they were in the late 80s to the mid 90s.
The successes he has had as to treatments have been at a cost to those conditions being sidlelined to play catch up on.

Eventually,that is going to come to a head if its allowed to get even worse and that is when I believe, he would bring in full private healthcare but it would have to be paid for, and I believe by the patients that need it.

He lied, I hate liars and especially when they do so and win the trust of people then do the total opposite.
That is how I see him, I really intensely dislike him as a politician because to me he has shown he cannot and should not be trusted.his word being meaningless.
I think David Cameron is the poorest and worst leader the Conservative party has ever had.
There are loads of Conservative MPs, I have regard and respect for and have said so many times but not him, for me he has tainted the office of Prime Minister and I am just glad I wasn't one who believed his promise on the NHS in 2010.
Even though for my sins I trusted someone else who I shouldn't have who the supported the bulk of this NHS re-organisation that has cost loads to do.

As I said, I will take the word of those I know who work in the NHS, such as my family, who if you think I am angry, then you should hear them,because most of them did trust him and badly regret doing so now.

However,give him another 5 years with the NHS,then let you and I come back to this then or even before as the NHS is dismantled beyond all recognition, you can believe that won't happen, I am prepared to take the sound word of others,in the know, that it already is.

He won't get the chance from me to carry on with it,no way.
At least I will be able to say I saw his hidden agenda and wouldn't give him the chance,my conscience will be then clear.

However the NHS and those who need it but have no means to pay for health,will, I firmly believe be the ones to pay a heavy price, for this PM being allowed to go ahead with not only his future plans but to also implement all the other main parts of the re-organisation he wanted to include,which were so bad even the Lib Dems refused to support them,which he had to put on the shelf for this parliament.

I have no problem withthe Conservatives at all, as I said in a post above but I do have massive problems with this Conservative leader; and the way he has conducted this govt; he leads.
I am furious he has got away with so muchas to what he has so far done to the NHS.

I am also one who believes the NHS should be removed from the political arena and have said so many times,even on here.
Labour and the Lib Dems were trying to have concensus on the NHS in 2009/10, the only person who didn't want that was Andrew Lansley the Conservative shadow health minister at the time.
I still hope for that concensus but it will never come from this PM and this present Conservative govt:

Anyway I am entitled if I so wish to get angry and passionate when I see a perceived great wrong and even moreso if I can believe it is a great wrong.
To trust this particular Conservative PM unchecked with the NHS,would for me, be a great wrong.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Letter from senior health professionals says coalition has left NHS in weakest position ever and calls on people to use votes to reinstate service
(Read the letter in full)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...letter-in-full
Leading doctors in the NHS have accused the coalition government of a catalogue of broken promises, funding cuts and destructive legislation which has left the health service weaker than ever before.

'In a letter to the Guardian, more than 140 senior doctors pass a damning judgment on the government’s stewardship of the NHS, which they say is under pressure because of unnecessary market-oriented changes.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...-record-on-nhs

Thank you Kizzy, I know one of the signatories to that letter because I am related to him.
Still if people won't listen, they won't listen, if Cameron gets 5 more years with his hands on the NHS,lets see what they are all saying then.
At least we,you and I, can see it now.

[Kizzy]

You must be very proud that they are willing to take a stand Joey
Yes we can, I just hope that the truth trickles out faster and faster until may and more are able to see that the plans are already in place to effectively remove healthcare as a public service.