[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

...so you say, it was there so it must have been...a belief that it was the right thing to increase air strikes is all that I've seen and all that I believe was ever there...if you're trying to take some higher ground here over anyone who has been in favour of these strikes then I find your post far more offensive and sickening then anything else I've read in these threads...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...so you say, it was there so it must have been...a belief that it was the right thing to increase air strikes is all that I've seen and all that I believe was ever there...if you're trying to take some higher ground here over anyone who has been in favour of these strikes then I find your post far more offensive and sickening then anything else I've read in these threads...

Damn right I'm claiming the higher ground!
#NotInMyName

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Damn right I'm claiming the higher ground!
#NotInMyName

A difference of opinion does'nt by default make something "higher ground".

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

A difference of opinion does'nt by default make something "higher ground".

Oh I disagree, I don't have my conscience to fight with so I feel I'm already on at least firmer ground. If that is a bitter pill I make no excuses for illuminating the gulf between the two options.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Oh I disagree, I don't have my conscience to fight with so I feel I'm already on at least firmer ground. If that is a bitter pill I make no excuses for illuminating the gulf between the two options.

Only because you are not looking at both options thoroughly.You only see the negatives of bombing and not the negatives of letting IS carry on slaughtering people in the worst ways possible.I would say the latter option would make me fight with my conscience more.You see opinions don't equal 'higher ground'.We all have different opinions.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Sorry mate but this whole paragraph is a 'pot kettle black' post.

I'd be real interested to know why you think bombing Syria will work Johnny? From where I'm sitting, there's a lot of winduppery going on whilst not saying very much at all, at least nothing that can be focussed on or debated with.

What's the long term plan of this bombing campaign against ISIS? How do we know when we've got them all and at what stage is it safe enough to pull out? Indeed, can we ever pull out or is this going to be another 10 year invasion?

Kizzy doesn't need defending but when I see you, the person who recently started a thread so that you could ask an unanswerable question with the full intention of mocking and patronizing any reasonable answers, trying to patronise and segregate a person who so often brings so much thought and debatable issues to a forum group; it takes every inch of me to hold back and not insult you.

Hey nay worries I never respond to posts like that, that's what the report button is for.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

'WE' have a lot more to be 'PROUD OF' than the bestial, evil ISIS scum who repeatedly mutilate the genitals of screaming 3 year old children while they are still alive, behead terrified innocent civilians, massacre in cold blood hundreds of innocent civilians in their OWN countries whilst they are just going peacefully about their daily business, and who rape innocent young girls before selling them into slavery.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

'WE' have a lot more to be 'PROUD OF' than the bestial, evil ISIS scum who repeatedly mutilate the genitals of screaming 3 year old children while they are still alive, behead terrified innocent civilians, massacre in cold blood hundreds of innocent civilians in their OWN countries whilst they are just going peacefully about their daily business, and who rape innocent young girls before selling them into slavery.

Again making the mistake of assuming that when I say we don't have anything to be proud of, I am intimating that ISIS does. I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I am well aware that ISIS are far worse, but that the existence of such evil does not necessarily make the opposition "good". Something that you seem unable to grasp - and yet it's me who is being "juvenile and simplistic"?

You've lost your ability to see the shades of grey Kirk, or, if you haven't, you're doing a damned good impression of someone who has. You have the world in your head neatly divided into Heroes and Monsters.

I guess it must be an easy moral stance to take but, unfortunately for me, it's just not one that I can delude myself into.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Again making the mistake of assuming that when I say we don't have anything to be proud of, I am intimating that ISIS does. I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I am well aware that ISIS are far worse, but that the existence of such evil does not necessarily make the opposition "good". Something that you seem unable to grasp - and yet it's me who is being "juvenile and simplistic"?

You've lost your ability to see the shades of grey Kirk, or, if you haven't, you're doing a damned good impression of someone who has. You have the world in your head neatly divided into Heroes and Monsters.

I guess it must be an easy moral stance to take but, unfortunately for me, it's just not one that I can delude myself into.

Not so at all.

YOU may not be proud to be British, and - as you repeatedly post - may not believe in Democracy, and may think the British are of low intellect and stupid, but I DO NOT agree with you.

I have lost no ability to 'see shades of grey', but on the matters which we most commonly 'debate' on here, it actually comes down to 'Black' and 'White'.

Yes - you may say ISIS are bad or wrong etc, but I do not witness the same vehemence from you in your posts for ISIS and their evil deeds that I do when you are criticising the UK and its Government, and its people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Not so at all.

YOU may not be proud to be British, and - as you repeatedly post - may not believe in Democracy, and may think the British are of low intellect and stupid, but I DO NOT agree with you.

If you have a point here, I'm afraid I'm missing it? I'm well aware that we disagree on these matters and always will, and... To be blunt... I just don't care?

I have lost no ability to 'see shades of grey', but on the matters which we most commonly 'debate' on here, it actually comes down to 'Black' and 'White'.

Ahh so you have only lost your non-binary perspective when it comes to certain issues. Duly noted. I personally believe (no... I know) that there is no such thing as black and white.

Yes - you may say ISIS are bad or wrong etc, but I do not witness the same vehemence from you in your posts for ISIS and their evil deeds that I do when you are criticising the UK and its Government, and its people.

Because the fact that an organisation like ISIS does not represent me or my beliefs in any way is self-evident. I don't NEED to shout from the rooftops that ISIS don't act in my name, that I don't agree with them.

The government of my own country? My own countrymen spouting their toxic crap and merrily cheering on warmongering bandits and thieves? Yes, I feel the need to tell anyone who will listen that I despise them and everything that they represent, and that they do NOT and likely NEVER WILL be acting in my name.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

A quite simply brilliant appraisal Ammi and 100% the truth.