[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I edited my above post, so just for clarity, i will repeat it here :

There was a time in the UK when people supported our forces once a decision had been made to take action in a country. People who now don't accept the will of parliament and continue to undermine the decision are nothing short of traitors in my opinion.

Change 'parliament' with 'Islam' and you'd sound a lot like an IS member there... Quite ironic, no?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Hey i'm just going by what you've written in your posts.

How did you deduce what I've read on the subject then sherlock?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie Christmas

I think it's a bit rich to accuse people of crowing TS when your own posts come across a little more than smug.

Comfortably a self-assured arsehole fanks for yrr concern . It's what happens when you're consistently always right forever, as you will see in a couple of years when I am inevitably also right about this and everyone in their dog is lining up to talk about Cameron's dodgy dossier and the disaster of the campaign in Syria a-la-Blair/Iraq. I will say I told you so, and I would be lying if I said I won't get any enjoyment out of doing so.

We elect people to make these decisions for us

I did not elect these people. I do not accept the will of the idiots who did.

if it went to referendum it might not have been so clear cut as a lot of people can see pros and cons in both approaches, the vote was out of our hands so there is little point crying about what might have been

If it went to referendum it would have gone the same way because, consistently, when the government runs a campaign leveraging people's fears (Scottish indy, 2015 General Election) people will vote accordingly. Those in power would have scared people into voting for action. See above re: idiots and me not accepting their will.

no one wants civilian casualties

Not about wanting them, there are plenty of people however who don't care very much about them (if they are not British, American, Australian, French, or other "folks like us"). People care more about 100 civilian casualties in Paris than they do about 5000 in the Middle East. This is painfully evident. No one "wants them" - they just fail to give it much actual thought.

but no one wants the world we live in currently either

Agreed, however

and don't want to take this kids to shopping centres or crowded places just in case"

I don't and never will live like this, because I have a rational understanding of risk and know that my children are more at risk every time they cross a road than they are in a shopping center. I will not be sucked in by fear propaganda as that is exactly "what the terrorists want" - just as they want us to start dropping bombs. It all helps them. It's a mind game and every time someone buys into it they further a problem that will never (ever) be solved with guns, bombs or bullets.

Finally - I don't know what the solution is either. I don't think there is one. See above, re: idiots. ISIS idiots, Western idiots, human idiots like dogs fighting over the meaningless bones of a long-broken world.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Doesn't mean it will be the norm, far from it. UK bombing of ISIS in Iraq, no civilian casualties so far. Its not the objective of the missions to kill civilians, you paint it like it is, which is both disgusting and wrong

I am fully in support of air strikes, and I will not be made to feel that is wrong by your conjecture.

There was a time in the UK when people supported our forces once a decision had been made to take action in a country. People who now don't accept the will of parliament and continue to undermine the decision are nothing short of traitors in my opinion.

What an odd thing to say, parliament make decisions on 100s of things throughout the year are you suggesting everyone fall in line with everything regardless of their own personal politics?.....

[T*]

i'm more shocked that people are shocked that we're doing this
it was obvious from the get go..

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Mistletom*

i'm more shocked that people are shocked that we're doing this
it was obvious from the get go..

Who is shocked?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Comfortably a self-assured arsehole fanks for yrr concern . It's what happens when you're consistently always right forever, as you will see in a couple of years when I am inevitably also right about this and everyone in their dog is lining up to talk about Cameron's dodgy dossier and the disaster of the campaign in Syria a-la-Blair/Iraq. I will say I told you so, and I would be lying if I said I won't get any enjoyment out of doing so.



I did not elect these people. I do not accept the will of the idiots who did.



If it went to referendum it would have gone the same way because, consistently, when the government runs a campaign leveraging people's fears (Scottish indy, 2015 General Election) people will vote accordingly. Those in power would have scared people into voting for action. See above re: idiots and me not accepting their will.



Not about wanting them, there are plenty of people however who don't care very much about them (if they are not British, American, Australian, French, or other "folks like us"). People care more about 100 civilian casualties in Paris than they do about 5000 in the Middle East. This is painfully evident. No one "wants them" - they just fail to give it much actual thought.



Agreed, however



I don't and never will live like this, because I have a rational understanding of risk and know that my children are more at risk every time they cross a road than they are in a shopping center. I will not be sucked in by fear propaganda as that is exactly "what the terrorists want" - just as they want us to start dropping bombs. It all helps them. It's a mind game and every time someone buys into it they further a problem that will never (ever) be solved with guns, bombs or bullets.

Finally - I don't know what the solution is either. I don't think there is one. See above, re: idiots. ISIS idiots, Western idiots, human idiots like dogs fighting over the meaningless bones of a long-broken world.

I won't live like that either but I'm quite alarmed at the number of people who are beginning to live like it, insisting on armed police every where and cancelling trips to London etc

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Mistletom*

i'm more shocked that people are shocked that we're doing this
it was obvious from the get go..

Who is shocked? What was obvious ? and when was the get go?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Sorry mate but this whole paragraph is a 'pot kettle black' post.

I'd be real interested to know why you think bombing Syria will work Johnny? From where I'm sitting, there's a lot of winduppery going on whilst not saying very much at all, at least nothing that can be focussed on or debated with.

What's the long term plan of this bombing campaign against ISIS? How do we know when we've got them all and at what stage is it safe enough to pull out? Indeed, can we ever pull out or is this going to be another 10 year invasion?

Kizzy doesn't need defending but when I see you, the person who recently started a thread so that you could ask an unanswerable question with the full intention of mocking and patronizing any reasonable answers, trying to patronise and segregate a person who so often brings so much thought and debatable issues to a forum group; it takes every inch of me to hold back and not insult you.

Hey nay worries I never respond to posts like that, that's what the report button is for.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie Christmas

I won't live like that either but I'm quite alarmed at the number of people who are beginning to live like it, insisting on armed police every where and cancelling trips to London etc

I know a girl who is scared to walk past the local "asian owned shop", it's getting insane. I'm pretty sure the owners aren't even Muslim - not that it should be an issue even if they were.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..there is no high ground bcause there was never any to be taken in the first place, all there ever was and all there ever is, is a ...oh my opinion is better than your opinion/I'm right, you, you're wrong, I'm more informed than you are, catch yourself on, tat and tit and last word and look now are you happy there are civilians dead...while in fact, civilians are dead and no one is happy, why would they be, the very suggestion is absurd but still, the last words or the words continuing instead of showing some respect for those who are dead by ceasing these silly words ....you struggle to even be civil to each other or respectful/thoughtful of each other and yet you think that you have something to add in solutions of world conflicts...

[James]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Ohhh also, just to add, I am pro-indy Scottish and I am represented by an SNP MP, all of whom voted against this action. So not actually a traitor by any description . (Which is frankly a ludicrous statement to be making in the first place by the way, and pretty much loses you all credibility).

I just sadly live in an occupied country. Voluntarily occupied, at that. Because of people lapping up government scaremongering and ****. I'm starting to see a pattern emerging I think...

In my opinion, the only thing the SNP really care about (in whatever political argument) is getting Scotland to eventually be an independent country. In 2013 Alex Salmond backed military action in Syria - http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...mond-1-3071423

Their position now is about domestic politics, and sowing more division between Scotland and the UK.

I don't think Scotland is an occupied country in any sense.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

There was a time in the UK when people supported our forces once a decision had been made to take action in a country. People who now don't accept the will of parliament and continue to undermine the decision are nothing short of traitors in my opinion.

Wait, what?
We don't live in North Korea or Saudi Arabia, we live in a democratic country or did that one pass you by?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

In my opinion, the only thing the SNP really care about (in whatever political argument) is getting Scotland to eventually be an independent country. In 2013 Alex Salmond backed military action in Syria - http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...mond-1-3071423

Their position now is about domestic politics, and sowing more division between Scotland and the UK.

I don't think Scotland is an occupied country in any sense.

That's not the point, I'm not an SNP fanboy and likely would not have voted for the SNP in an independent Scotland.

The only point was that I did not vote for those who voted for war, therefore, the argument that "we vote for people to represent us and should then follow their decisions" is invalid; the people who I voted for to represent me did not vote for war, and therefore, I do not have to accept the decisions of people who were voted into power by others. I don't believe in majority rule, I don't particularly believe in democracy. I think it's the best system we currently can realistically have, but that does not make it a "good system". But I am an individualist and, no, I don't believe that anyone has to accept anything at all just because "the folks that most people voted for are choosing it". What nonsense.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by James

In my opinion, the only thing the SNP really care about (in whatever political argument) is getting Scotland to eventually be an independent country. In 2013 Alex Salmond backed military action in Syria - http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...mond-1-3071423

Their position now is about domestic politics, and sowing more division between Scotland and the UK.

I don't think Scotland is an occupied country in any sense.

'The First Minister said Scottish MPs at Westminster backed the possibility of action through the UN - if the use of chemical weapons had been proved by weapons inspectors.'

Slight difference there, and that was a while ago are people not allowed to amend their thinking based on evidence and information?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

A quite simply brilliant appraisal Ammi and 100% the truth.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

'WE' have a lot more to be 'PROUD OF' than the bestial, evil ISIS scum who repeatedly mutilate the genitals of screaming 3 year old children while they are still alive, behead terrified innocent civilians, massacre in cold blood hundreds of innocent civilians in their OWN countries whilst they are just going peacefully about their daily business, and who rape innocent young girls before selling them into slavery.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by James

In my opinion, the only thing the SNP really care about (in whatever political argument) is getting Scotland to eventually be an independent country. In 2013 Alex Salmond backed military action in Syria - http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...mond-1-3071423

Their position now is about domestic politics, and sowing more division between Scotland and the UK.

I don't think Scotland is an occupied country in any sense.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Wait, what?
We don't live in North Korea or Saudi Arabia, we live in a democratic country or did that one pass you by?

You took the words right out of my mouth,thank you for that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Wait, what?
We don't live in North Korea or Saudi Arabia, we live in a democratic country or did that one pass you by?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I know a girl who is scared to walk past the local "asian owned shop", it's getting insane. I'm pretty sure the owners aren't even Muslim - not that it should be an issue even if they were.

I know hundreds of people who are NOT scared to walk past or even patronise 'Asian owned' businesses. I do not believe that the Great British Public are as stupid as your posts constantly and repeatedly make them out to be.

There is a vast difference between some people electing to exercise caution and not frequent possible terrorist targets in big cities - especially those with children - and the odd exceptionally timid person actually being 'frightened' of walking past an 'Asian owned shop' - which is ludicrous and xenophobic in the TRUE sense of the word.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Only because you are not looking at both options thoroughly.You only see the negatives of bombing and not the negatives of letting IS carry on slaughtering people in the worst ways possible.I would say the latter option would make me fight with my conscience more.You see opinions don't equal 'higher ground'.We all have different opinions.

I could not agree more. Well said.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

'WE' have a lot more to be 'PROUD OF' than the bestial, evil ISIS scum who repeatedly mutilate the genitals of screaming 3 year old children while they are still alive, behead terrified innocent civilians, massacre in cold blood hundreds of innocent civilians in their OWN countries whilst they are just going peacefully about their daily business, and who rape innocent young girls before selling them into slavery.

Again making the mistake of assuming that when I say we don't have anything to be proud of, I am intimating that ISIS does. I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I am well aware that ISIS are far worse, but that the existence of such evil does not necessarily make the opposition "good". Something that you seem unable to grasp - and yet it's me who is being "juvenile and simplistic"?

You've lost your ability to see the shades of grey Kirk, or, if you haven't, you're doing a damned good impression of someone who has. You have the world in your head neatly divided into Heroes and Monsters.

I guess it must be an easy moral stance to take but, unfortunately for me, it's just not one that I can delude myself into.

[bots]

Just a little point of note for those saying that bombing ISIS in Syria is such a bad thing.

ISIS are currently making Syria such a wonderful place to be and live that MILLIONS of Syrians have fled their country. Wow ISIS must be really wonderful to the people for that reaction eh?

[James]

I've deleted some posts. Stick to the topic instead of discussing each other.