[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm sure all those benefit cheats give you high fives all round as well

As the elite will of course be high fiving you... kidding I'mm 99.9% sure they wouldn't give you the steam off their piss.

[bots]

In the same way that someone on benefits will position themselves to maximise their claim, those paying tax look to maximise their income and lessen their tax burden ... both positions equally valid and equally within the law. It may well be the case that the vast majority of investments made through this company are perfectly legitimate and above board. Those that have used it for money laundering and tax fraud should be prosecuted, but in a similar way to those on benefits, the number of real criminals is likely very small.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Given my experiences, I'd pay what I owe just like I do now.

Isn't that the point, they are paying what the owe under the law?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As the elite will of course be high fiving you... kidding I'mm 99.9% sure they wouldn't give you the steam off their piss.

And I wouldn't want it

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

In the same way that someone on benefits will position themselves to maximise their claim, those paying tax look to maximise their income and lessen their tax burden ... both positions equally valid and equally within the law. It may well be the case that the vast majority of investments made through this company are perfectly legitimate and above board. Those that have used it for money laundering and tax fraud should be prosecuted, but in a similar way to those on benefits, the number of real criminals is likely very small.

Talking way too much sense there...people with money ...Baad, people on benefits..good etc etc

[the truth]

over half these tax avoiders are british and now one of the inheritors of these rewards , dave Cameron aka mr slippery , is pretending he is the hero who will stop this mass multi trillion worldwide robbery....hes admitted he was lying about shares, but hes also ducked questions on his whole family and his inheritance...how exactly is a man on £130k a year worth over £30 million ?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Isn't that the point, they are paying what the owe under the law?

Well, if you want to get technical then those few people on benefits who know how to play the system are also working within the law, doesn't stop you from hating them, doesn't it?

The main difference is that people on benefits need them to live, Tax Evaders do it out of greed and they have a bigger effect than a few people on benefits who know how to get what they need from the system.

You're comparing someone who needs benefits to live to people who are making your life worse through their own greed by withholding money they owe to the state.

It honestly astounds me how you or anyone else can defend this.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

are you telling me there are no people cheating the system giving legitimate claimants a hard time

Not as many as the media would have us believe there are,and the vast majority of people on benefits were once working and later circumstances such as redundancies,loss of jobs or severe ill health forced them out of work and into benefits.
They often had the so called luxuries before they became unemployed or ill, yet people begrudge them the idea of even having just an up to date TV.

Yet while annoyance rears its head on this issue of tax avoidance or evasion, the same hard condemnation against that greed does not surface like it does for someone on benefits who may have a computer or good quality TV, no matter the circumstances.

The last estimation on a benefits programme was on a Channel 4 programme with Richard Bacon indicated that the benefit claimants making fraudulent or wrong claims was an extremely small number indeed.

This Panama list has hundreds of thousands to millions on it I understand,yet gets nothing like the scorn that a benefit cheat may get,when in fact that is exactly what these people are doing, who already have the wealth to do so, cheat the system.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

over half these tax avoiders are british and now one of the inheritors of these rewards , dave Cameron aka mr slippery , is pretending he is the hero who will stop this mass multi trillion worldwide robbery....hes admitted he was lying about shares, but hes also ducked questions on his whole family and his inheritance...how exactly is a man on £130k a year worth over £30 million ?

I agree.
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until today, when he eventually after days of being asked about them,admitted he had funds in these places.
Which he promptly said he sold in 2010 before he became PM.

What great difference does he think there ought to be as to decency whether as PM or leader of her Majesty's Opposition considering he had them during all his years of being that Opposition leader..
I see no difference myself in fact.

[Tom4784]

I did the maths, with the benefit cap in place the maximum a single person can claim in benefits for a year is £18,200 (£350 a week) and that's the maximum, a family can claim up to £26,000 (500 a week) a year. Once again, these are the maximum rates for multiple different benefits. The average amount you'll get yearly from JSA is around £3697 (£71 a week) as of last year.

Remember that very few people will claim enough different benefits to hit the cap and the cap is only lifted for certain benefits like Disability or Military Based benefits. So basically, the only way you're gonna claim more is if you qualify for it.

These tax evaders are hiding away millions in taxable money, just a few of them paying the proper amount of tax would cover a lot of people who are reliant on benefits.

People on benefits aren't draining the state, it's the arseholes who won't pay their taxes that are the real issue here.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Talking way too much sense there...people with money ...Baad, people on benefits..good etc etc

Who has said this, people with money bad... people on benefits good?

What comments led you to this conclusion, Maybe you borrowed that crystal ball that's rolling around.. BOTS just used it to foresee the small amount of criminal behaviour involved here.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I did the maths, with the benefit cap in place the maximum a single person can claim in benefits for a year is £18,200 (£350 a week) and that's the maximum, a family can claim up to £26,000 (500 a week) a year. Once again, these are the maximum rates for multiple different benefits. The average amount you'll get yearly from JSA is around £3697 (£71 a week) as of last year.

Remember that very few people will claim enough different benefits to hit the cap and the cap is only lifted for certain benefits like Disability or Military Based benefits. So basically, the only way you're gonna claim more is if you qualify for it.

These tax evaders are hiding away millions in taxable money, just a few of them paying the proper amount of tax would cover a lot of people who are reliant on benefits.

People on benefits aren't draining the state, it's the arseholes who won't pay their taxes that are the real issue here.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I did the maths, with the benefit cap in place the maximum a single person can claim in benefits for a year is £18,200 (£350 a week) and that's the maximum, a family can claim up to £26,000 (500 a week) a year. Once again, these are the maximum rates for multiple different benefits. The average amount you'll get yearly from JSA is around £3697 (£71 a week) as of last year.

Remember that very few people will claim enough different benefits to hit the cap and the cap is only lifted for certain benefits like Disability or Military Based benefits. So basically, the only way you're gonna claim more is if you qualify for it.

These tax evaders are hiding away millions in taxable money, just a few of them paying the proper amount of tax would cover a lot of people who are reliant on benefits.

People on benefits aren't draining the state, it's the arseholes who won't pay their taxes that are the real issue here.

The other issue as to the full welfare spending is also often overlooked in that the vast majority of it goes on pensions and pensioners extras immaterial of what wealth any of those pensioners have,except for Pension credit.

When calls are made to reduce welfare spending and the govt view is not to touch pensioners at all, then the only people who can be hit are the sick, disabled, most vulnerable and jobless.
Where really in all truth as you have pointed out, there are no really big pickings to take anything from them that could be, or are fair and just in any form.

Unlike rooting out and getting due taxes which have been evaded or avoided from such as those on this Panama list who have massive means at their disposal.

[Kizzy]

Govt response to the leaks...

''Our message is clear: there are no safe havens for tax evaders and no-one should be in any doubt that the days of hiding money offshore are gone. The dishonest minority, who can most afford it, must pay their legal share of tax, like the honest majority already does''.

The truth...

However, the Conservative party itself is bankrolled by tax dodgers. An investigation by the Political Scrapbook in 2013 showed that at least 14 of the top 20 Tory donors can be linked to tax havens. Top Tory patrons likely avoid tax and then donate hundreds-of-thousands of pounds to the party.

Accordingly, six household multinationals gushed over a ‘mate’s rate’ of 0.3% corporation tax in 2014. Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Google, eBay and Starbucks paid next to none of the 21% corporation tax, while small and medium-sized businesses must pay their share.


http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/07/r...ed-tax-havens/

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Govt response to the leaks...

''Our message is clear: there are no safe havens for tax evaders and no-one should be in any doubt that the days of hiding money offshore are gone. The dishonest minority, who can most afford it, must pay their legal share of tax, like the honest majority already does''.

The truth...

However, the Conservative party itself is bankrolled by tax dodgers. An investigation by the Political Scrapbook in 2013 showed that at least 14 of the top 20 Tory donors can be linked to tax havens. Top Tory patrons likely avoid tax and then donate hundreds-of-thousands of pounds to the party.

Accordingly, six household multinationals gushed over a ‘mate’s rate’ of 0.3% corporation tax in 2014. Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Google, eBay and Starbucks paid next to none of the 21% corporation tax, while small and medium-sized businesses must pay their share.


http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/07/r...ed-tax-havens/

The next election can't come soon enough.

[the truth]

Obama stated this tax avoiding is not billions its, TRILLIONS. This allied to the corporate takeover of the entire world is ultimately responsible for wall wars and famines. You can forget everything else, THIS is the only and real battle left. EVERYTHING else is mere smokescreen divide and conquer methods used by the elite 0.1% to keep the other 99.9% peasants in the ****

am I exaggerating?

the migrant crisis 100% created by the elite 0.01%
they sold the wespons, they started the wars, they wanted open borders for dirt cheap labour
the EU
again open borders totally dangerous but all about cheap labour. ONLY NOW do we realise the EU has outlawed anything every being nationalised again

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Have you any figures to back that up? Once again I reiterate I have no problem paying my taxes to support those in need, but I resent paying to those who play the system and depend on it as a lifestyle choice.

Well said Cherie.

The problem of 'Benefit Cheats' is not anywhere near as miniscule as some on here like to claim - if my own direct personal knowledge is typical of the real nationwide figures.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Not as many as the media would have us believe there are,and the vast majority of people on benefits were once working and later circumstances such as redundancies,loss of jobs or severe ill health forced them out of work and into benefits.
They often had the so called luxuries before they became unemployed or ill, yet people begrudge them the idea of even having just an up to date TV.

Yet while annoyance rears its head on this issue of tax avoidance or evasion, the same hard condemnation against that greed does not surface like it does for someone on benefits who may have a computer or good quality TV, no matter the circumstances.

The last estimation on a benefits programme was on a Channel 4 programme with Richard Bacon indicated that the benefit claimants making fraudulent or wrong claims was an extremely small number indeed.

This Panama list has hundreds of thousands to millions on it I understand,yet gets nothing like the scorn that a benefit cheat may get,when in fact that is exactly what these people are doing, who already have the wealth to do so, cheat the system.

Like at lot of people I was genuinely appalled at the tax credits and PIP proposed cuts, forgive me for not feeling the same for the example brought into this thread about the woman with 8 kids. I don't know why people aren't as outraged as others would like them to be on this issue, maybe people are just fed up or busy with life

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Are you saying they pay no tax at all? What about the people who worked hard for their 5 houses?

Yes that's exactly what many are saying, no tax at all.

'David Cameron's late father used one of the most secretive tools in the tax avoidance trade to ensure his firm never paid any dues in Britain'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...son-David.html

[Kizzy]

Loving the deflection in this thread, it is officially a strawman argument.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Like at lot of people I was genuinely appalled at the tax credits and PIP proposed cuts, forgive me for not feeling the same for the example brought into this thread about the woman with 8 kids.

I am annoyed at any benefit cheat or anyone claiming what they should not too, however because it is a stick to beat benefit claimants with when any case does appear like the one you mention.
Then the media and others try to present that as more the norm than a tiny majority,with no figures to back same up however.

I do not know how many as a % may be cheating the system but when I see TV programmes devoted to the issue and they always say, all of them, that the cheats are a very small number indeed,then I accept that.

From my personal experience of being involved with people on benefits and preparing casework as to them,I find more people 'not' claiming what they should be getting rather than finding people claiming wrongly.
It is why when the DWP cuts anyone's benefits, if they go the whole way and go to a court tribunal on appeal, I have yet to see a case where the DWP actions is upheld and the benefits not ordered to be restored in full or in a greater part.


Do you ever ask yourself, despite the likes of ATOS and now the American firm re-assessing the claimants,the media scratching around like rats looking for food, looking for benefits cheats,and this particular govt going all out to discredit those on benefits that still a tiny number are actually found and make it to the front pages of any so called newspapers.
I do and my answer to myself is because there are in truth very few to actually find anyway,if there were we would see them likely named and shamed every day in the media.

They are not there in the numbers people think they are,so in the main people on benefits should not be classed in the same way at all as someone who has wealth, hiding it,certainly from this Panama list, not declaring it all the time and fully intending to avoid or evade paying any dues taxes on it too.
Benefit cheats when found should and are dealt with and often severely at times too however they are nowhere in the same league as those who have already made or just acquired wealth to then play the system and hold off paying due likely tax they should.

If people know for sure of benefit being wrongly claimed, tell the DWP who will investigate every case,you may be stunned to learn however the number that are investigated on only the suspicions of another which turn out to be false suspicions in the first place.
Very dangerous to assume someone on benefits is cheating 'if' it is not known for sure.

Back to this issue, if there was nothing illegal, immoral or wrong about these accounts and funds, then why did the PM deny having them,why did he not declare it instantly when asked, and why hide them while in all his time as Opposition leader too.
It has had to be dragged out of him and rightly so,whoever else may be found in the same position as him,no matter what political party they belong to or who or what even as a company they may be,then they should really have the book thrown at them.

You rightly, I was pleased to see, condemned the PIP and tax credits planned cuts,I don't know whether you would do the same as to taking up to £30 a week off ESA claimants in the WRAG group of ESA too from next year.
Who are deemed too ill or disabled to work at the present time.

I find it really nauseating that anyone in power should get away with any form of tax avoidance or evasion, they should not as public servants even be involved in any scheme whether it is illegal or not.

They and the leaders of parties particularly who seek being elected to the highest office in the lands should actually be setting an example, something that I would say none of the people on this list have done or intended to do. Their actions just done out of pure greed and selfishness and not even needing to be done by them either.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Well, if you want to get technical then those few people on benefits who know how to play the system are also working within the law, doesn't stop you from hating them, doesn't it?

The main difference is that people on benefits need them to live, Tax Evaders do it out of greed and they have a bigger effect than a few people on benefits who know how to get what they need from the system.

You're comparing someone who needs benefits to live to people who are making your life worse through their own greed by withholding money they owe to the state.

It honestly astounds me how you or anyone else can defend this.

I refuse to live life in an apathetic daze, befuddled by reality TV, a banal press and the brainwashing that has left a lot of people to think immigrants and benefit claimants are the cause of all our ills.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes that's exactly what many are saying, no tax at all.

'David Cameron's late father used one of the most secretive tools in the tax avoidance trade to ensure his firm never paid any dues in Britain'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...son-David.html

Can I have a guardian link to this please, I don't read the DM

[DemolitionRed]

I knew this debate would get turned back on the benefit thieves but then political apathy sucks. Capitalism is damn clever, like the Romans who drugged the masses on bread and circus; MacDonald’s and that Jeremy Kyle. Mass hypnosis and biological manipulation.

This highly sophisticated tyranny need delusions of "freedom" because only then can these terrible and inhumane things occur, only then will we turn our focus and our anger towards the lowest common denominator....It feels like we are being harvested.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am annoyed at any benefit cheat or anyone claiming what they should not too, however because it is a stick to beat benefit claimants with when any case does appear like the one you mention.
Then the media and others try to present that as more the norm than a tiny majority,with no figures to back same up however.

I do not know how many as a % may be cheating the system but when I see TV programmes devoted to the issue and they always say, all of them, that the cheats are a very small number indeed,then I accept that.

From my personal experience of being involved with people on benefits and preparing casework as to them,I find more people 'not' claiming what they should be getting rather than finding people claiming wrongly.
It is why when the DWP cuts anyone's benefits, if they go the whole way and go to a court tribunal on appeal, I have yet to see a case where the DWP actions is upheld and the benefits not ordered to be restored in full or in a greater part.


Do you ever ask yourself, despite the likes of ATOS and now the American firm re-assessing the claimants,the media scratching around like rats looking for food, looking for benefits cheats,and tis particular govt going all out to discredit those on benefits that still a tiny number are actually found and make it to the front pages of any so called newspapers.
I do and my answer to myself is because there are in truth very few to actually find anyway,if there were we would see them likely named and shamed every day in the media.

They are not there in the numbers people think they are,so in the main people on benefits should not be classed in the same way at all as someone who has wealth, hiding it,certainly from this Panama list, not declaring it all the time and fully intending to avoid or evade paying any dues taxes on it too.
Benefit cheats when found should and are dealt with and often severely at times too however they are nowhere in the same league as those who have already made or just acquired wealth to then play the system and hold off paying due likely tax they should.

If people know for sure of benefit being wrongly claimed, tell the DWP who will investigate every case,you may be stunned to learn however the number that are investigated on only the suspicions of another which turn out to be false suspicions in the firs place.
Very dangerous to assume someone on benefits is cheating 'if' it is not known for sure.

Back to this issue, if there was nothing illegal, immoral or wrong about these accounts and funds, then why did the PM deny having them,why did he not declare it instantly when asked, and why hide them while in all his time as Opposition leader too.
It has had to be dragged out of him and rightly so,whoever else may be found in the same position as him,no matter what political party they belong to or who or what even as a company they may be,then they should really have the book thrown at them.

You rightly, I was pleased to see, condemned the PIP and tax credits planned cuts,I don't know whether you would do the same as to taking up to £30 a week off ESA claimants in the WRAG group of ESA too from next year.
Who are deemed too ill or disabled to work at the present time.

I find it really nauseating that anyone in power should get away with any form of tax avoidance or evasion, they should not as public servants even be involved in any scheme whether it is illegal or not.

They and the leaders of parties particularly who seek being elected to the highest office in the lands should actually be setting an example, something that I would say none of the people on this list have done or intended to do. Their actions just done out of pure greed and selfishness and not even needing to be done by them either.

Good post Joey I still think that the waters are muddied here by tax avoidance v evasion though, as for leaders setting examples, I doubt that will ever happen