[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This argument falls apart though unless you also believe gay men should be put somewhere different to male prisons, as they have also been discriminated against and such by the people they are housed with

True, but being transgendered is far less accepted and frowned upon nowadays, and it's something that will be noticed right away by inmates. Inmates might not even know if a prisoner who is entering is gay. Although 5 percent or so of males identify as gay I think now, and so I wonder in the future if they'll have an LGBT prison, as 5 percent is quite a big population, it's 1/20, and there are often over 20 prisons in countries

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

Prison suicides by women have soared... rates are high anway, around 150 people a week commit suicide in prison. They're all worthy of attention.

Not by the Early AM BBC TV World News
sorry

[Vicky.]

Also...you never see any stories about transmen wanting to be in the male prison for some odd reason. I wonder why that is...

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Adam.

But being a murderer you should be given the same sentence as man or woman not going to a mental hospital because you dont feel safe in prison

Being in a mental hospital is not a holiday, we give murders hospital treatment, and in general keep them safe in prison, so if trans genders are not safe in prison we need to act despite the fact they may be murderers.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Being in a mental hospital is not a holiday, we give murders hospital treatment, and in general keep them safe in prison, so if trans genders are not safe in prison we need to act despite the fact they may be murderers.

Then we send all murderers to mental hospitals because they are all clearly unhinged?

[Denver]

We also got to put women prisoners in to account are they going to be comfortable with it? do that want to see a willy flop about in the shower?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

Nope, what I'm saying is many LGBT teens are kicked out on the street at 16, and are homeless and see crime as their way out. This happens because they are different and get abuse from uneducated dumb crowds. I don't see how placing transgendered people with these same people who are often the cause of them going into crime is exactly rehabilitation. I'm not saying they should get special treatment, I think they should however be placed in correct/better prisons or even safer places in the prisons, because transgendered people are definitely going to be targetted by the other inmates. [I've had 3 hours sleep, so not very coherent but can't think of the actual word]

We're not talking about lesbians and gay people, we're talking specifically about transgener people... and they are not the only ones to be kicked out at 16. All sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds have a bad start. Nothing excuses them breaking the law... not anything.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Then we send all murderers to mental hospitals because they are all clearly unhinged?

Of course we don't, every murderer is a seperate case

[Denver]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Of course we don't, every murderer is a seperate case

You must be unhinged and mental to take someones life no?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Adam.

We also got to put women prisoners in to account are they going to be comfortable with it? do that want to see a willy flop about in the shower?

They are also people who have committed crimes, so why should their discomfort be taken into account but the treatment of transgender people shouldn't? Somebody committing suicide because of their treatment in prison is surely a higher priority than making sure people feel 'comfortable'?

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Adam.

You must be unhinged and mental to take someones life no?

No, and it's defined in law.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

They are also people who have committed crimes, so why should their discomfort be taken into account but the treatment of transgender people shouldn't? Somebody committing suicide because of their treatment in prison is surely a higher priority than making sure people feel 'comfortable'?

Well all i see in this Friends is trans lives matter more.

If they have not legally changed their gender status or had the right procedures on offer then they have no right to demand to be put in the right prison.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

They are also people who have committed crimes, so why should their discomfort be taken into account but the treatment of transgender people shouldn't? Somebody committing suicide because of their treatment in prison is surely a higher priority than making sure people feel 'comfortable'?

Well...we separate by sex. Male and female. So...its not about feeling comfortable as such. its about the reasons for seperating by sex to start with

Unless you believe all prisons should be mixed, then I cannot understand the idea of 'sex segregation is needed but not in some cases'

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Well all i see in this Friends is trans lives matter more.

If they have not legally changed their gender status or had the right procedures on offer then they have no right to demand to be put in the right prison.

I don't think it's that they matter more, but if they matter equally and something can be done to make sure they're treated equally (rather than less-than which is how they're currently often treated by being subjected to abuses within the prison system) then that's all I think people really want. Like Douglas said earlier in the thread it's not about 'special treatment', it's just trying to ensure that they get punished by the system instead of by other prisoners.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well...we separate by sex. Male and female. So...its not about feeling comfortable as such. its about the reasons for seperating by sex to start with

Unless you believe all prisons should be mixed, then I cannot understand the idea of 'sex segregation is needed but not in some cases'

I think the reason we have separate prisons for men and women is to do with safety, mainly keeping female prisoners safe from male prisoners. So it just seems odd to me that we have that as a staple of our prison system yet when it comes to safety of other groups we don't have anything in place. I don't know what the ideal solution is but I don't accept the idea that they should just have to put with it because they're criminals. We don't accept that in regards to female prisoners so why trans prisoners?

[DouglasS]

What I'm trying to say is... Males and Females are seperate in prison for a reason, to prevent deaths/harm/abuse. I'm just using the exact same logic, thinking transgendered people deserve the same rights that in this instance females have.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I think the reason we have separate prisons for men and women is to do with safety, mainly keeping female prisoners safe from male prisoners. So it just seems odd to me that we have that as a staple of our prison system yet when it comes to safety of other groups we don't have anything in place. I don't know what the ideal solution is but I don't accept the idea that they should just have to put with it because they're criminals. We don't accept that in regards to female prisoners so why trans prisoners?

The answer is quite obviously separate wings for transgender people. Not throwing them in with the females and thus putting the females in the very danger we were trying to avoid by separating by sex.

A hell of a lot of this 'trans' stuff seems to take '**** females and their safety' as a default position when talking about sex segregated areas. I disagree with that entirely and the obvious answer is separate areas for transgendered people. If this is 'othering'...so be it. There is NO other solution to this that doesn't throw half of the population under the bus. Females remain safe (or as safe as possible) and transgendered people are safe. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The answer is quite obviously separate wings for transgender people. Not throwing them in with the females and thus putting the females in the very danger we were trying to avoid by separating by sex.

A hell of a lot of this 'trans' stuff seems to take '**** females and their safety' as a default position when talking about sex segregated areas. I disagree with that entirely and the obvious answer is separate areas for transgendered people. If this is 'othering'...so be it. There is NO other solution to this that doesn't throw half of the population under the bus. Females remain safe (or as safe as possible) and transgendered people are safe. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

My point was to say that if a trans-woman was in a female prison, I don't think that the 'discomfort' of the other women should be the deciding factor in whether or not that happens (it wasn't referring to the safety of the women, just the suggestion that they might not be comfortable with it).

So it's not a '**** females and their safety' stance, it's a '**** discomfort' stance The safety of women prisoners is of course just as important, but I don't know if they'd really be at an increased danger by being among trans-women anyway (even if they haven't fully transitioned)? I could be wrong on that, I don't know the stats on it. But anyway, I think that if trans people aren't going to be put into prisons with the gender that they identify as, then like I said they should absolutely have the option of going into a segregated trans-only wing so I'd agree on that.

[Vicky.]

Prisons are separated by sex, not gender though?

Anyway, my solution won't make some happy but its the fairest/safest I can see all round really. Fully transitioned transwomen can go to female prisons. Others, a seperate wing. Those who decide they are trans after being convicted/caught, **** them as they are just looking for an easy way out of male prison.

Note. I do not include transmen in this as they don't kick up a fuss about wanting to be in with the males, or don't seem to. Seems its just about getting the 'easier prison' so to speak.

[Vicky.]

Also there is a fair bit of evidence that 'transwomen' are still a danger to women. However I say 'transwomen' as it tends to be just guys dressed in 'womens' clothes, or guys with a fetish for 'dressing as female', but how to tell these apart from 'genuine' trans women? Unfortunately those kind of people are actually classed as 'transgender' these days. Its a little silly. Even I am classed as trans as I have no feeling of being a woman..I just feel like myself. Which apparently makes me 'agender' and at the same time, puts me under the trans umbrella

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe they could desist from breaking the law, then they wouldn't have to go to prison. It's a radical idea, I know...

Christ
I love listing things people did wrong after their suicide.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

why is this in chat and games

[arista]

Originally Posted by That Girl

why is this in chat and games

my fault


up at 4AM
work

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe they could desist from breaking the law, then they wouldn't have to go to prison. It's a radical idea, I know...

It's the fault of the prisons for failing to protect their most vulnerable prisoners, whether it's suicide or murder, they have failed in their duty of care.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

Christ
I love listing things people did wrong after their suicide.

You give up your right to make demands once you've broken the law, in my opinion, whatever your gender, whatever your sexual preference. If transgenders are particularly at risk - which they are not looking at the statistics - then put them in isolation for their own protection. But why is it so much more tragic that a transgender person commits suicide than it us for the others who commit suicide in custody? Answer: It's not, they are all tragic cases.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's the fault of the prisons for failing to protect their most vulnerable prisoners, whether it's suicide or murder, they have failed in their duty of care.

They have failed in their duty of care for decades... but it's only a problem when transgender people die?