[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

He had been on a disability benefit for the last 2yrs ( which is how contribution based JSA is calculated the previous 2 tax years)

Ahh, I might have missed where it was stated that he had been on disability for two years beforehand. It felt like it was implied that his heart attack at work had been recent? My mistake there though if not.

Also you are presuming that the mother has near perfect finances, who has those? We are all robbing peter to pay paul, even if she did have her tax credits how are they alone enough to support a family she may have debts... council tax, water, phone, gas, electric.. finance company..loan shark.. that's before she's bought food.
It would not be enough to live on.

It irks me that even seeing the film it's presumed the writers have overlooked the bureaucracy involved as well as the complex nature of what it means to be living in poverty in England.

That was my issue, though (although she would not be paying council tax). I know that it does happen and I know the reasons; credit card and catalogue debt being major ones that push families into poverty. If they had even suggested that there were debt issues it would have solved that plot inconsistency for me. There was a prime opportunity when the daughter needed new shoes; this is exactly the sort of situation that leads to people turning to things like "Very" and ending up with catalogue debt, avoiding the payments, ending up with debt collectors etc. And as you say, this is the complex nature of poverty in the UK, that mean a shortfall in income CAN be disastrous. It's what needs to be recognised and addressed. They don't even hint at these issues, they massively over simplify it as her "getting no money in the first place" and basically... My problem with it is that it gives the naysayers scope to disregard the message.

"You can feed yourself and your kids and pay for gas and leccy on CTC and Child Benefits", they'll say. And that is, simply, true. You CAN'T when all of the other costs and pressures of modern life (clothing, transport, debts from an earlier life e.g. She was a student and likely, like most students, would have run up a huge overdraft and some credit card debt). The fact that they made it LESS complex is the major problem.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Ahh, I might have missed where it was stated that he had been on disability for two years beforehand. It felt like it was implied that his heart attack at work had been recent? My mistake there though if not.



That was my issue, though (although she would not be paying council tax). I know that it does happen and I know the reasons; credit card and catalogue debt being major ones that push families into poverty. If they had even suggested that there were debt issues it would have solved that plot inconsistency for me. There was a prime opportunity when the daughter needed new shoes; this is exactly the sort of situation that leads to people turning to things like "Very" and ending up with catalogue debt, avoiding the payments, ending up with debt collectors etc. And as you say, this is the complex nature of poverty in the UK, that mean a shortfall in income CAN be disastrous. It's what needs to be recognised and addressed. They don't even hint at these issues, they massively over simplify it as her "getting no money in the first place" and basically... My problem with it is that it gives the naysayers scope to disregard the message.

"You can feed yourself and your kids and pay for gas and leccy on CTC and Child Benefits", they'll say. And that is, simply, true. You CAN'T when all of the other costs and pressures of modern life (clothing, transport, debts from an earlier life e.g. She was a student and likely, like most students, would have run up a huge overdraft and some credit card debt). The fact that they made it LESS complex is the major problem.

There has been no council tax benefit since 2013

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There has been no council tax benefit since 2013

It's still available, they just changed the name to Council tax reduction.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There has been no council tax benefit since 2013

You've got the wrong end of the stick on that one Kizzy, CTB was replaced by a council tax reduction (of up to 100%) depending on circumstances. All it means is that rather than getting extra benefit per week to pay the council tax bill, you simply get a reduced (or zero) bill in the first place.

A single mother of two children under 18, in Newcastle, living in council accomodation would be on 100% council tax reduction.

I'm not being a Tory here Kizzy, you're fighting the wrong battle. My point is not that there isn't a massive poverty problem to address and horrendous things happening with disability - a bad ATOS assessment that took 18 months to appeal, I am 100% convinced, contributed to my own mother dying at 59.

My point is that these messages MUST be accurate. They have to be air tight. Because the holes are where people who do want to demonise those on benefits or advocate reductions will start picking and trying to unravel it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You've got the wrong end of the stick on that one Kizzy, CTB was replaced by a council tax reduction (of up to 100%) depending on circumstances. All it means is that rather than getting extra benefit per week to pay the council tax bill, you simply get a reduced (or zero) bill in the first place.

A single mother of two children under 18, in Newcastle, living in council accomodation would be on 100% council tax reduction.

I'm not being a Tory here Kizzy, you're fighting the wrong battle. My point is not that there isn't a massive poverty problem to address and horrendous things happening with disability - a bad ATOS assessment that took 18 months to appeal, I am 100% convinced, contributed to my own mother dying at 59.

My point is that these messages MUST be accurate. They have to be air tight. Because the holes are where people who do want to demonise those on benefits or advocate reductions will start picking and trying to unravel it.

Nope, I didn't state it hadn't been replaced i said there was no council tax benefit any longer.. and there isn't.

Where is the information that confirms that? I don't know any lone parents with a !00% reduction in CT.

The message is airtight, you have picked holes in it due to your own lack of knowledge on the subject.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Nope, I didn't state it hadn't been replaced i said there was no council tax benefit any longer.. and there isn't.

Where is the information that confirms that? I don't know any lone parents with a !00% reduction in CT.

The message is airtight, you have picked holes in it due to your own lack of knowledge on the subject.

It isn't, you're wrong, you have confirmation bias on this subject, and you're happy to see important messages only preach to the choir. This is a problem, Kizzy. The point t and opportunity of films like Daniel Blake are to speak to people who DON'T currently know there are major issues with the system. If they only speak to those who already know there are problems, they are not living up to their full potential.

Unemployed single parents would be on minimum council tax liability. In most areas this is zero though I have just looked up Newcastle and it's 15% of full liability. Assuming a band A property, that works out as (at most) about £3 a week.

Appologies for assuming 0% across the board, Scottish privilege coming in again clearly.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It isn't, you're wrong, you have confirmation bias on this subject, and you're happy to see important messages only preach to the choir. This is a problem, Kizzy. The point t and opportunity of films like Daniel Blake are to speak to people who DON'T currently know there are major issues with the system. If they only speak to those who already know there are problems, they are not living up to their full potential.

Unemployed single parents do not pay council tax. Full stop, fact, if they are, they've filled in the form incorrectly.

From my own experience I was a lone parent on a benefit and I paid £125 towards my council tax.

Any kind of confirmation from you would be a bonus, all you appear to have is your own preconception.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

From my own experience I was a lone parent on a benefit and I paid £125 towards my council tax.

Any kind of confirmation from you would be a bonus, all you appear to have is your own preconception.

From my own experience of being in a COUPLE with children on slowly-increasing income since the first was born, I paid none at all until she was two and was only liable for the full bill once I was working full time at well over minimum wage. Experience in both the North of England and Scotland.

I must have far too much ****ing time on my hands because I've actually just done a full benefits calculation for the girl in the film based on the year it was made.

She would have had £117 a week child tax credits, £35 a week child benefits.

She would have lost £72 a week in JSA due to the sanction.

She would have had no rent liability (she states she is in a council property, housing allowance would therefore cover full rent)

She would be paying £2.95 a week council tax (confirming that my estimating skills are awesome).

So she has income of roughly £150 per week and mandatory outgoings of around £25 - 30 a week assuming just over £20 a week for water and gas and electricity.

I do know this system. I've lived in it, I've helped countless other parents navigate it, I've seen my mother navigate disability.

The only explanation for the girl in the film ending up starving, is substance abuse or debt. No two ways about it. We see clearly that she does not have substance abuse problems, therefore, for the film to be realistic they should have at least implied that she was in trouble with creditors - given that this is one of THE most pressing issues in UK relative poverty. It would have taken minutes. Shown her buying kids Clothes on credit with there already being a large outstanding balance, show her looking worried when a red envelope lands on the rug in the morning. These details are important. Her situation has to be a real one.